-- Start log: Monday, September 10,
2001 9:02:46 am CDT
DDD says, "ok, we're set"
DDD looks around.
slang says, "I had thought about asking Rich if he wanted to be here to moderate..."
DDD sits
down on the couch.
DDD gets up from the couch.
DDD says, "woops, where are my manners... please sit down, everyone. :)"
Beckster sits down on the couch.
DDD sits down on the couch.
Geoff says, "Let me say that overall I liked the book, would recommend it, even
though I'm in disagreement with a lot of the ideas in it"
slang sits on the couch
Beckster says, "do go on, geoff..."
DDD nods to Geoff.
Geoff says, "print's
not dying, collaboration is overated, MOOs . . . hmmmm"
Beckster nods...thought form
overwrote function more than once
slang [to Beckster]: where at, specifically?
DDD says, "I agree with you, geoff. i think there's a lot of hyperbole.
And/but this is not a criticism. (God, given that i am the *queen* of hyperbole.)
It is a description. There is the performance of something here...the hyperbolic
(for effect) performance of a "passing,"
as VV says, that we'll need to learn how to read."
slang says, "I also thought that, but want to see if we saw these things in
the same areas..."
Geoff says, "yes, ddd, hype. very much. maybe inevitable in c&w scholarship?""
Beckster [to slang]: I like the playful nature of several of the first chapters
(johns, victor's, Kathy et al, and the MOO), but after a while, I thought that
the ideas were trying to be as...avante garde? as the form
slang says, "hyperbole with a purpose, or hb for it's own sake..."
Beckster [to DDD]: yes, performance art....very much
Geoff says, "becky, exactly. it's like the temptation
to run away with pomo rhetoric, and match the world to the words, inflationary
words, was too great."
DDD [to Geoff]: maybe. I think so. A continuous pointing to a death, though,
in order to make some room for something else? Because print
may be dying--sure, it's dying. But
it will never *stop* dying. It lives on and on...just as writing
itself does, after the crisis in representation. This is why VV speaks of
print culture in the future anterior tense. More interesting perhaps is that
"we" (as humanist writers) are dying, as VV also notes.
Beckster says, "and given the recent discussions of what, exactly IS C&W, perhaps
we need to think about where
this kind of performance "fits" (or if it does)"
slang [to Geoff]: that's a good question--is hyperbole inevitable in CW scholarship--I
don't think it is, but people seem to have a hard time moving away from it...
Beckster nods to geoff
Geoff says, "we're fascinated, delighted by stuff, so we get too
involved in techne rather than content, which is what I think the focus
should be"
DDD says, "hmmm. I'm not sure i agree, geoff..."
DDD says, "I mean, yes, i agree to a certain extent, but i think something
else may also be at work..."
Geoff says, "I don't like to fetishize media"
DDD says, "a few something elses, in fact. Frinstance..."
Beckster [to slang]: I wonder if this kind of hyperbole isn't appropriate for
those enamored with the possibilities of technology/rhetoric, but that it *should*
lead to something else?? Or can this hyperbole become a scholarly endeavor,
ala pomo, too?
Beckster [to Geoff]: I think techne has to be an acknowledged aspect. But so
does phronesis
DDD says, "at the vulgar level of interp, there's the fact that c&w
is still not legitimate work in the institution, so there is this need to make
room for it...and that leads, and i think understandably/justifiably, to some
"my (electric) rhetoric is bigger and badder than your (print) rhetoric"...
that kind of thing."
DDD says, "but then there's also this..."
Geoff asks, "OK, DDD, I agree with you on institutional paramters. But what
will stop the marginalization?"
Beckster [to DDD]: and the trouble with that is it does
NOT fit into "institutional goals" and thus perpetuates itself as not legitimate
DDD says, "the "form" is kind of the content in this medium.
That is, this form cannot be held accountable to print form's value system or
system of legitimation. As Ulmer constantly reminds us, electracy is NOT simply
electronic LITERACY, not simply print literacy moved to an electronic medium.
It's something else, another sort of "literacy" altogether. I'm not
saying this well, but VV's text deals with
this; cynjan's too, to an extent."
slang says, "I think we need to differentiate between departments and institutions...sometimes
C&W work fits into institutional goals, but not local, department goals."
Beckster grins wryly at slang.
DDD nods to slang.
slang raises an eyebrow
Geoff says, "this form thing is very knotty, D. i don't mean to trivialize it.
You know what depressed me? the number of articles that seemed to fall back
on well-written essays, well-crafted stuff. All these new means and too many
old values."
slang [to Geoff...a]: deliberate choice by the editors, I would think...
DDD says, "I think the struggle, though, is learning electracy, where the
old rules of print literacy don't work and something else is at stake... Ultimately,
the institutional or departmental "issues" and power games will not
morph until electracy takes its place (at least) alongside literacy."
DDD nods to Geoff.
DDD says, "me too."
Beckster [to DDD]: in Tech com, visual representation, delivery, etc. are all
very important in terms of content and allowing that content to be "consumed".
And C&W does border tech com/rhetoric. But it doesn't, then, acknowledge
some of the more non-humanistic type work, then--from capitalism (we need
jobs, and compensation for the work we do) to very mundane human/computer interface
DDD [to Beckster]: can you elaborate a bit?
Geoff says, "Great insight becky--I need to remember that many of the c&w scholars
are coming at it from a tech com standpoint. you are so right, though, that
this leaves a received content base."
slang [to all]: It seems that we are once more struggling with the notion of
field identification. Why *isn't* TC more prevalent here?
Beckster says, "well, in order for "electracy" to be truly a literacy, that
is, for it to be functional,
it needs to be understood and consumed...but the playful nature dictated by
the medium may NOT, after all, be the best forum for this function to occur.
The other side is that we fall back on trad. structures because we need the
function of this counting
for something (tenure, promotion, etc). We simply don't have the freedom
to push boundaries in the way the book suggests we should."
DDD hmms
DDD says, "well, lemme try this idea out..."
slang [to Beckster]: What boundaries do you see us failing to push?
Beckster [to slang]: that the book suggests, or in general?
slang [to Beckster]: take your pick...
DDD says, "what would you say if i said that ethically we can't go (only)
from institutional concerns to pedagogical or scholarly ones? That it has to
flow the other way (or at least equally the other way). And that the pushing
has to happen, has to, from the side of curriculum/pedagogy and research....
and then (only then) would institutional goals and mandates have the chance
of moving...changing."
DDD asks, "that's a real question. What would you say to that?"
Beckster says, "that online work should be valued; that print is over-rated;
that collaboration/play is work; etc."
slang [to DDD]: I'd agree with that, for the most part.
Geoff says, "I agree 100%"
Beckster [to DDD]: I would say yes, but then I would say what are we training/working
w/ students for? Are we giving them a good liberal education? a background to
prepare them for life-long learning? A means to function in a job/profession?
DDD says, "so if that's the case, we can't then also say that the boundaries
these essays want to push are not pushable. Right?"
Geoff says, "right"
Beckster says, "because depending on which of these you emphasize, your research/pedagogy
will differ"
Geoff says, "exactly, Becky, so youneed to know the least amount of institutional
constraint you have."
slang [to all]: I don't know that I see these as a strict binary--and that's
what I see us setting up here...
Geoff says, "we need to become institutional minimalists as much as possible"
slang [to Geoff]: how would you define institutional minimalist? Interesting
term
Beckster [to Geoff]: or at least what YOU believe to be the best case scenario
for the students, given the context, etc.
DDD [to Beckster]: For me, it would be a death sentence to think first in terms
of whether i'm helping my students enter the economic structure as it stands.
I have to work (mainly) from the other direction. Offer them the chance to learn
and to learn to learn something OUTSIDE that for which the econ. structure currently
accounts. Then the structure can change. Maybe. Maybe it can change. But anyway,
i don't think i hinder their education or job opportunities by pushing and asking
them to push. That is what i would consider my job.
Geoff says, "yes, Susan. Sorry. But corporate goals and human goals are often
in an adversarial relationship"
Geoff says, "beautifully stated, DDD"
Beckster says, "Ok, and while I love your description, DDD, I think I'm more
Isocratian in my approach: trying to educate someone to be a responsible citizen--not
a sheep, but responsible, a producer--in
our changing economy"
Geoff says, "And D, since I'm also trying to do what you want, I see no difference
between a web site and a poem, a chalkboard and a network. each has revolutionary
possibilities when used with an ethos of wonder"
slang [to Geoff]: I guess I want to push us a little here, because C&W has been
using that idea as a mantra, it seems, for at least 15 years...and stopping
short of articulating the differences--assuming that these are standard assumptions.
DDD nods to Beckster.
DDD says, "Ok. :) Fair enough."
DDD [to Geoff]: yep. I agree with you, geoff
Beckster says, "I don't THINK that these are nec. diametrically opposed, though
as slang notes, they are often portrayed as such"
DDD [to slang]: what "idea" are you talking about? sorry, got lost!
Beckster [to Geoff]: going back to what you said earlier, I think that we good,
liberal humanists often dismiss corporate goals as BAD w/o any kind of examination
Geoff asks, "well, take
speed and efficiency, which many of the writers in the book prize. what's
so great about those values when it comes to education?"
slang [to DDD]: Ah--the corporate v. humanist goals...how we usually set them
up in opposition without further discussion
DDD [to Geoff]: for me, each is a site of communication and so an exposition
of community that precedes "understanding." In that sense or at that
level, I agree that it's a waste of time to differentiate between the chalkboard
and the web site. (There are other senses and other levels, though.)
DDD nods to slang.
DDD says, "ah. Thanks! >:>"
slang [to Geoff]: and, although several writers discussed S&E as part of the
writing and thinking that occurred in the writing of this, it, of course, is
not reflected in the publication process...some
of these people have moved on to bigger and brighter things in their work.
Beckster says, "speed and efficiency are important at times...but then, so is
reflective, critical examiniation, AND so is production, something which often
falls by the wayside"
Geoff says, "I agree with you both, S & B"
Beckster notes that, after editing a collection, speed and efficiency are non-existent
in the editing and processing
DDD grins at Beckster.
Beckster says, "so the book itself is a contradiction..."
Geoff says, "yes, one of the dull ironies about this collection, which bets
so strongly on reading the future"
slang [to all]: the irony is that we are examining this critical, time sensitive
text nearly two years after the writing...and the sense of time/urgency changes
quite a bit, eh?
Beckster nods to slang.
Geoff says, "OK, but what's great about the book. lots of stuff"
slang [to all]: what's enduring (since were on the temporal track) and what
do we take and move on from?
slang grins at Geoff...similar tracks here!
Geoff says, "great minds, S"
DDD notes that, like Avital Ronell's
Telephone Book, Derrida's Glas, Taylor and Saarinen's Imagologies, etc.--this
collection attempts to perform past the Book, but *in* a book.
Beckster says, "and is a book like this--which focuses on technology--supposed
to be enduring? Perhaps archival, but I wonder if it should be enduring"
slang [to Beckster]: does it focus on technology, or how we represent ourselves
and students via the tech...
DDD says, "I think it is the performance of the book rather than of the
Book; it busts the phantasm of the Book, even though it's a book. :) "
Beckster nods to ddd, and the early "pushers" of this kind of play/performance
were marginalized cultures/ideologies
Geoff says, "great distinction, B. I love how the book catalogues so much temporality--listserv
discussions, emails, MOOs."
Beckster [to slang]: both, since technology (moos, e-mail and naming, etc.)
is always in the background
DDD says, "yep."
DDD says, "Still, though, I want to be a good (nietzschean) hyper-hermeneut
and allow for a double valance here: so i also *appreciate* the courage evidenced
by this collection's hyperbolic assurance..."
Geoff says, "one of the great themes in the work is the attempt to trace a poetics
of new forms. Michael & Kathi do it most explicitly, but it's there in a lot
of stuff . . . some of Dene's comments and questions, e.g."
DDD says, "I mean, i think its pushy tone and edginess are extremely courageous,
especially given the academic climate"
Beckster grins to ddd; it's comforting, yes, and I WANT to believe. But it's
dangerous, too, in that if you identify too much w/ it, and that's all you produce,
you may not succeed in your institution.
slang [to DDD]: I found it interesting to chart the iterations of edginess...some
more explicit than others.
Geoff says, "Oh yes, DDD, the pushy tone. there's c&w scholarship at its best--that
nutty enthusiasm, half-brilliant, half bullshit. "glimpsed yet not fully examined"
as Gail & Cindy put it."
Beckster says, "I also like the imitation
of the traditional (the intro, for example) in play/conjunction with the
more boundary pushing stuff"
DDD [to Beckster]: "Some of the responsibility necessarily falls to the
reader, yes. But i'm saying that the hyperbolic tone, the pushy 'tude is a performance,
a style that for different reasons can be both applauded and critiqued."
Beckster [to slang]: I like the idea of charting edginess
DDD smiles at Beckster.
DDD says, "me too."
DDD grins at Geoff.
DDD looks around.
Beckster [to Geoff]: Frednostications
Beckster asks, "so what kind of form will this review take?"
Geoff says, "good question, B"
Beckster asks, "should it, too, be "performance"?"
slang [to all]: this iterative performance is what many in this field have been
trying to execute for a while....the value here is seeing the ways in which
people choose to match edginess of form with that of content
DDD says, "Ah, our empirical task rears its uglyyyy head. :) "
slang grins--you mean this isn't it?!
DDD grins at slang.
slang asks, "we can title it--is there a review in the MOO?"
Geoff says, "maybe we can make the MOO hypertextual. there are little bits I'd
like to elaborate on"
DDD says, "I like it. It rhymes. And the rhythm is nice....you can dance to
it. ;)"
Beckster nods to geoff.
DDD nods to Geoff.
slang [to DDD]: that was my goal!
DDD asks, "I like that idea, too. Actually, isn't that what we originally suggested?"
slang [to all]: yes, the reflective MOO...
Geoff says, "I never remember what i originally suggest"
DDD asks, "we'll maybe have some of this text as a starting point and then our
texts can link from here and back?"
Beckster nods.
DDD grins at Geoff.
slang [to all]: interesting, given Sandye and Mick's edited MOO transcript in
the book, and the comments on that...
DDD says, "Geoff is into affirmative forgetting."
Geoff says, "Thank you for naming it"
slang lol
Beckster says, "I almost like that better than the idea of each of us selecting
a section. I'd like to comment on broader notions...."
DDD nods to slang.
slang [to all]: there seemed to be a desire/need to integrate an element of
performance into our review--rather than the same ole hypertextual stuff.
Beckster says, "but it was so dang hard to read--my eyes, like the rest of me,
are getting old"
Beckster wonders if it's time to bring out the interpretive dance
DDD asks, "Oh, i think we shooooould comment on broader notions. I think we
were just suggesting that each essay probably needs a little extra TLC from
someone...so i'm responsible for addressing certain thangs in mine, and you
yours...etc. Along with our broader comments. Right?"
Beckster nods...sounds good to her
slang [to DDD]: that's a good point
Geoff says, "right, D. And B--yes, the eyes, sad"
slang [to all]: so, who's on first...second...etc?
Beckster says, "I dunno (oh, he's third, right?)"
Geoff asks, "D, how do we get electronic text to mess around with/ Who will
do the actual linking of stuff?"
slang [to all]: Rich gave us an original structure, but I don't remember it...
DDD is a highly suggestive human. If you saaaaaaaaaay my eyes should hurt, they
bloody will start hurting. So cut it out!
slang [to all]: we can set up a space on the TTU server for temp holding of
this
Geoff says, "D, you are in affirmative denial"
DDD [to Geoff]: i'm recording, so i'll send a copy of this transcript to each
of you via email...that'll be a start.
Beckster nods
DDD says, "this transcript will also be here...in the moo. So how about this...."
Beckster says, "I do wonder about who's going to be doing the actual linking,
etc.--slang and DDD, you two are wizard-like humans."
Beckster says, "NOT that Geoff and I are not...."
Beckster says, "but in different ways...:-)"
DDD asks, "We'll each do what we want to do hypertextually off of this text,
and then we'll combine links and such on a master copy of the mooscript?"
Geoff says, "more wizened than wizard, B"
Beckster agrees (for me, anyway)
DDD grins at Beckster.
slang [to all]: yes, I've been thinking about the design of the linking...
slang grins at the last comments
Geoff asks, "D & S, that sounds fine. we can email things we're doing as we do
them, so we see what we're each up to?"
DDD says, "That's a good idea."
slang [to all]: I'd like to put in a request to examine 1.3, 1.4, and 2.5, or
be one of the examiners for those sections...
Beckster says, "Ok, so can we try this--each of us web the transcript and then
add to it? We could have a shared space on our server..."
DDD says, "We may decide as we go, too, that we want to try to meet again here."
slang nods to DDD a reflective MOO after the writing
Geoff exclaims, "yes, Act !!"
Beckster grins and nods
Geoff says, "I mean, Act II"
slang [to all]: if we're modeling after shakespeare, we need acts 3 - 5
slang smiles
Beckster [to slang]: this is a two act play
Geoff says, "Slang, Fitzgerald said there's no second acts in American tragedy,
so we'll just do our second act and go home"
DDD [to slang]: ok. i've got vitanza and the cyn-jan
Geoff says, "I'm not gonna focus in on any individual chapters, i don't think.
more themes"
DDD [to Geoff]: okay. You'll just dive into some when they fit?
Beckster wants to focus in on ideas she's working through (here and on her own)
then anchor them in texts
DDD [to Beckster]: good
Beckster says, "BUT I'll try to include those voices that y'all don't (always
making sure everyone gets picked for kickball)"
DDD says, "I think it'll be important to meet here again and go over the GOOD
stuff about the collection. ;)"
Beckster feels like Ma and Pa Kettle do reviews
DDD grins at Beckster.
Geoff says, "I feel more like Bill & Ted, B"
Beckster grins....Excellent!
Geoff says, "whoaaa"
DDD grins at Beckster, slang, and Geoff.
slang asks, "so, folks, anything else we need to hash out here?"
Beckster thinks we have a plan--so do we all work on our own individ. MOO hypertexts?
slang [to all]: perhaps we should let Rich know that we are working on something...
Geoff asks, "dates when stuff will be done?"
Beckster eyes geoff
DDD asks, "I think the whole thang is due next week, isn't it?"
DDD groans.
Beckster sighs and believes it to be true
DDD panics
Beckster asks, "speed and efficiency, remember?"
Geoff asks, "yes, next week, but when should we have drafts of stuff done, when
MOO again?"
DDD exclaims, "but we don't LIKE speed and efficiency!!"
Beckster notes that you WILL like it (you're suggestive, remember?)
Geoff exclaims, "score, B!"
Beckster asks, "drafts by...Friday? MOO Monday again?"
DDD exclaims, "Ok, let's get our individual stuff done by friday and meet again,
say...oh, shit. I'm out of town this coming weekend. !"
DDD laughs at Beckster.
DDD [to Beckster]: "Ok, that'll be after the deadline, but it works for me!"
slang [to all]: I'll set up a folder for us on the TTU server--send me your
tired, your visionary, your links
Beckster grins...yeah!
DDD asks, "We could tell the eds that we'll have it done one week late?"
Beckster thinks we could have some leeway
Geoff asks, "OK, S. Can you give us directions sometime?"
DDD [to slang]: you mean you're going to link stuff from this original moo script
for us?
slang [to Geoff]: yep--I'll be glad to...
Beckster [to DDD]: I bet she'll give us all permissions so we can each do it
DDD aaaahs
slang [to all]: we can do things either way--if anyone wants to send material,
that's fine--else we'll have our own little directory....
slang [to all]: with login names and everything!
Beckster becomes giddy at the thought
Geoff says, "could we have a retinal scan thing, too, S? More james Bond-y that
way . . ."
slang [to Geoff]: you got it!
Beckster decides she wants 007 music playing for HER review links
DDD asks, "Or a wet pack chip in our necks or something?"
Geoff says, "damn, B, you beat me out. I'll go with the new Dylan CD then"
slang [to all]: hmm--multimedia review performance art
Beckster opens limewire
DDD asks, "are we really using tunes?"
slang [to all]: oops multimedia scholarship review performance art
Beckster [to DDD]: the world is your oyster
DDD says, "cuz if we're REALLY using tunes, this is serious.
DDD scans around for her fav. cds...
DDD grins at Beckster.
Beckster [to DDD]: will you teach me to do what you've done on your pages? (love
the background music)
slang [to DDD]: you're right--this will require careful examination of the jazz
library
DDD [to Beckster]: it's a snap. Sure.
Geoff asks, "what have i started!!?? i take it all back. text only, no pictures,
even. OK?"
DDD smiles at slang.
DDD [to Geoff]:"too late spliceboy"
Beckster grins...starts thinking about mood music
DDD smiles > BIGTIME < !!
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slang lolDDD asks, "Ok, all, do we have what we need?"
Geoff says, "I wish i had a big frowny-face to show now"
Beckster nods.
slang says, I think so...
DDD says, "OH! Wait..."
Beckster giggles at Geoff
slang pats Geoff on the head
DDD says, "Do you want me to edit this mootext or just use it as is? I mean, ..."
Beckster [to Geoff]: get that hand buzzer from your kidling. It'll cheer you up.
Geoff says, "edit, please. I can't type"
DDD says, "if we want to edit it would be good to do it first b/f someone makes a link to something you wanted to cut."
slang [to DDD]: edit!
Beckster offers her moo text to you
DDD asks, "But give me some direction...is there anything in here content-wise (beyond typos) that we want to cut?"
Geoff says, "no"
Geoff asks, "actually, maybe let me read it first?"
DDD asks, "One "no." Anyone else?"
DDD asks, "Ok. Lemme send you all copies. You go through them and lemme know, k?"
slang [to all]: let's read and send suggestions to DDD by tonight
Beckster says, "can we glance over it, then say yeah or nay? (yay or neigh?)"
DDD says, "ok, sounds good."
DDD asks, "send me any cut-requests tonight, and i'll edit and send it back to you all. k?"
slang nods
Beckster nods
Geoff asks, "so, text due by Friday, then MOO again Monday?"
Beckster gulps and nods
Beckster asks, "same bat time?"
DDD says, "hypertexts due friday, moo-meet again monday. Sounds good"
slang says, "sounds good to me"
DDD says, "I think 9am works for me on monday."
Beckster asks, "is it 9 or 9:30?"
Geoff says, "OK, oh this will be a bad week . . ."
DDD [to Beckster]: 9am
Beckster notes it
DDD nods vigorously in agreement with Geoff's ideas.
Beckster says, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough..."
DDD says, "Ok, all. See you soon."
DDD laughs at beckster
Beckster waves
DDD waves to Beckster, slang, and Geoff.
slang says, "bye, everyone"
Geoff exclaims, "I'm affirming it to be a great week, though, whew!"
slang waves
Geoff says, "bye"
Beckster cheers geoff
DDD says, "bye"
slang dissolves slowly, taking her HTML code with her.
Beckster exclaims, "bye!"
Beckster gets up from the couch.
Beckster goes home.
DDD has split the scene.
Geoff has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Geoff off to bed.
-- End log: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:29:06 am CDT