Featuring: Ron Fortune and Jim Kalmbach, Computers and Writing 2002 Conference Chairs, and Linda Hanson and Rich Rice, Computers and Writing 2001 Conference Chairs

Hosted by: Jennifer L. Bowie and Colleen A. Reilly, Response Co-editors

Abstract:

The Computers and Writing 2002 Conference Chairs, Ron Fortune and Jim Kalmbach, and the 2001 Conference Chairs, Linda Hanson and Rich Rice, joined us to discuss the future of computers and writing. This lively discussion covers issues including some of the obstacles to integrating computer technologies into composition programs at some institutions, new trends in computers and writing, and the marginal or mainstream position of the computers and writing community.

The following is a log of the session.

Start log: Tuesday, October 16, 8:06:55 pm CDT

Jennifer says, "Welcome to this MOO on Computer and Writing. We will be discussing the future of Computers and Writing with our distinguished guests, the Linda & Rich Chairs of CW 2001 and Ron (who will join us shortly we hope!) & Jim CW Chairs of 2002. "

Susan says, "yes, one tiny line at bottom of screen"

JimK says, "There's hope"

Susan says, "I see anew guest"

Jennifer says, "MOO Logs for these texts will be edited for publication and reaction in the fall issue of Kairos"

A corporate guest arrives from the clearing.

riceman says, "Thanks, Jennifer and Colleen, for pulling this discussion together."

Jennifer smiles at Rich

Linda appreciates all the work entailed in getting us all together!

The corporate guest says, "hello I made it"

Susan cheers!!!!!

ColleenReilly says, "Jennifer and I collected and wrote questions for the chairs and everyone to discuss"

Douglas-e cheers Ron

Linda says, "welcome Ron!"

ColleenReilly says, "I will paste them in"

riceman [to the corporate guest]: "Hiya Ron! Try typing @name"

Jennifer says, "we have some discussion prompts but feel free to ask questions, start tangents, or any of that MOO stuff"

ColleenReilly says, "Yea Ron!"

Jennifer says, "YEAH we have a Ron!"

corporate guest changes eir name to Ron .

JimK says, "Nice call Susan"

James yays

Susan yay!!!!!!

Susan [to JimK ]: was it very hellish?

riceman [to Ron ]: "Sorry about the late change in line-up. Trouble with the BSU network."

ophelia arrives from the clearing.

James waves to ophelia

ColleenReilly says, "Here's the first prompt"

Susan waves to ophelia

obstacles to integrating computers | C&W community: mainstream or marginal

new trends in C&W | acceptance of online composition texts | top

ColleenReilly says, "How do we respond to ubiquitous computing? That is as colleges and universities approach a time when virtually all students own computers what will be the role of computer classrooms? Will there even be computer classrooms?"

riceman is Rich Rice, Ball State University.

Susan is Susan Antlitz, Illinois State University.

James is James Inman, University of South Florida

Linda is Linda Hanson, Ball State University

ophelia is loosey goosey who wears a neon wig

Jennifer is Jennifer Bowie, Kairos Response/Interactive chair

Tari is Tari Fanderclai, no wig.

Douglas-e is Douglas Eyman, Kairos co-editor

James grins at Tari

Alaskajeff is Jeff White, University of Alaska Anchorage

Susan is shocked at ophelia's wig ;)

ophelia [to Tari]: ah where is your orange wig?

JimK says, "It seems to me that historical, computer classrooms were accidents of access that become writing communities. We are losing that I think, now that everyone has their own computer."

ophelia . o O ( susan is just jealous )

Susan wears the invisible wig of MOO knowledge.

ophelia is awed by Susan's wig of MOO knowledge

Susan [to JimK ]: you mean they used to have collaborate as they
fought over the limited terminals?

Jennifer says, "I think it will depend on school. Some require laptops, with especially labs, so every classroom should be a computer classroom"

JimK says, "No they didn't have a computer at home so they would do their work in a computer classroom."

[ 8:47 pm ]

riceman [to JimK ]: "important phrasing, accidents of access. Nice."

ophelia says, "add wireless and yeah every classroom a computer classroom"

JimK says, "So these great accidental communities evolved."

Linda says, "I can envision classrooms to which students bring their own computers and access a wireless network so that the pedagogical impetus for using computers will dominate. "

ophelia [to JimK ]: why accidental?

Susan says, "and the computer being something cool and special kind of helped to. Now that everyone, more or less, has one, it's no fun to *have* to use them in class. ?"

Jennifer says, "we may also have to define computers. Some of the new cell phone can do more than my 1st computer. "

JimK says, "And when everyone has tons of tcp/ip based storage they will be able tog et to all of their files."

ophelia [to Linda ]: then presentations have to change

Ron says, "A part of the question is whether or not institutions can afford ubiquitous computing. "

Douglas-e [to JimK ]: so should one of our goals be to foster such communities, now that we've seen how they can be developed?

riceman says, "I think there are 'levels' of ubiquitous, too."

ophelia [to Ron ]: or force the students to shoulder the costs

riceman says, "ubiquitous with a capital U involves well thought out faculty development."

JimK says, "I do not know, but I know I missed those days when everyone gathered to write."

Jennifer says, "yes, computer are definitely less cool now that we all have them. Well all except some of my students (but maybe that is just an excuse?)"

riceman [to JimK ]: "well, some would say that's what we're doing now, yes?

Linda says, "Cost is a primary determinant of our technological resources--and how current they are. But it should not determine the pedagogical decisions we make!"

Douglas-e nods to JimK about everyone gathering to write

ColleenReilly [to Linda ]: That takes us to another question

riceman says, "I think one unfortunate result of 'accidental' networked lab designs at our institution is that in some of them there's no space to gather, physically."

ubiquitous computing | C&W community: mainstream or marginal | new trends in C&W

acceptance of online composition texts | top

ColleenReilly says, "What do you perceive to be the greatest obstacles in most institutions to integrating computer technologies into their writing programs?"

JimK says, "I have been trying to think of a nonflippant answer"

Ron says, "I think costs only determine the pedagogical decisions we make to the extent that the decisions are always influenced by the tools we have. We can't say we choose or don't choose to use computers in a particular way if the choice isn't there for us to begin with."

JimK says, "but I can't find one."

JimK says, "I think a big deterrent is that out community loves to be in the margins."

ophelia says, "right now I am teaching a class where only 4 kids had email accounts when the arrived. Usually only 4 DON'T have them"

Linda says, "Those days when we all gathered to write, in my experience, also included reading and responding to each other so that we were establishing a community of writers. We can still do that."

riceman says, "space, tech support, sustainable discipline-specific
faculty development..."

JimK says, "Where people leave us alone to do our own thing"

riceman [to ophelia]: Wow!

JimK says, "Locating ourselves within institutional conversations about computing I think is the biggest obstacle."

ophelia [to Linda ]: of course we can. We read more than we realize but not in the same way.

ColleenReilly [to Linda ]: And in some ways the community can be broader

Jennifer nods to Rich, definitely a problem w/ computer labs. Few are really designed to foster what should be happening in a classroom, collaboration, discussion, not checking email while the teacher is talking...

Linda says, "The greatest obstacle to integrating computer technologies into composition and writing programs is adequate professional development--based on sound pedagogy, not just technological expertise."

JimK says, "amen"

riceman [to JimK ]: "I agree. And as part of those conversations I think those 'in the know' sometimes close their eyes to those who REALLY know how to teach. Technology does not a teacher make."

ophelia [to riceman]: yeah I know. I am still recovering from trying to teach them to get an account and then learn how to use.

ColleenReilly nods to Linda

James wonders if we couldn't offer many of the same critiques of any physical environment for teaching and learning --------- the lecture hall, for instance, is also not known for fostering collaboration

riceman nods to James

JimK says, "I spent a lot of time on university committee learning how money flows to technology in our institution. It had not been pretty."

ophelia [to James]: just kibbizing :)

Susan is back. Making travel plans for someone desperately needing a ride.

Jennifer says, "But James, the lecture hall was developed when teaching was lecturing, right? SO it worked for that, but not for our new pedagogies."

riceman says, "Jim, what kind of institutional conversations need to happen in order to think-through 'teach-nology'?"

JimK says, "Isn't distance education the recreation of the lecture hall?"

riceman [to JimK ]: Well, I don't think so. Depends on the method of teaching.

JimK says, "Good question rich"

Linda With Jim, I agree about the need to locate ourselves within the institutional conversations about computing. Timing of initiatives, multiple initiatives all claiming faculty time, appropriate incentives for faculty to spend time making sound pedagogical decisions about their own classrooms, the imposition of new hardware/software on programs when they need other hardware or software to meet their pedagogical goals. . . .

ophelia [to JimK ]: no it is not. Usually tech gets the leftovers. How does evelyn posey get her tech money?

Susan [to JimK ]: some people use chat and MOO in DE, which makes it more interactive than a lecture.

riceman [to JimK ]: There's not much 'distance' in distance ed if it's taught well. Certainly less distance than the space between lecturer and student.

Alaskajeff has some of the best non-lecture interaction in his distance class.

Jennifer is double Mooing; there is a bunch of people still in lingua.

[ 8:57 pm ]

JimK says, "Ok, OK"

riceman [to Susan]: asynchronous exchange can be more interactive than lecture too.

JimK says, "I give"
riceman [to Jennifer ]: you rock, Jenn Jenn.

Jennifer says, "most anything can be more interactive than a lecture, especially when lecturing at 8am!"

Ron says, "It seems interesting that the question posits the possibility of ubiquitous computing and what we do in the face of it but the conversation has moved to the obstacles that keep us from getting where we want to be both with development and technology issues."

Jennifer blushes but look proud

James thinks ----- hmmm ----- I guess I'd resist thinking the lecture hall was created for lecture-based pedagogies entirely because there'd be other conditions like the economic results of packing more students per instructor into a ratio and then the way that collaborative pedagogy was evident historically before the emergence of the lecture classroom

JimK says, "What I learned in being on the committee is that at least at ISU the tech people hated to make decisions in a vacuum. That if I worked with them we could really get a lot done."

Susan . o O ( can anyone tell me the info for logging into lingua via my moo client, rather that the web. (If I open a browser, my connection will crash, I fear. )

Alaskajeff [to JimK ]: I wish I had your IT people...ours really is a vaccuum-loving group.

James [to Susan]: it's lingua.utdallas.edu, I think, but I dunno the port

JimK says, "I am thinking of Theodore Roethke rolling a bowling ball down berkey hall where all the chairs where bolted to the floor."

riceman nods to Jim.

Douglas-e [to Susan]: the port should be 7777 or 8888

Susan . o O ( oddly, I think I might have the port memorized... )

riceman says, "crazy 8s"

JimK says, "I find it helps to learn to look at the situation from their point of view."

Linda says, "One additional problem that we've found as an obstacle is the loss of versatile teachers who expertly integrate computer technologies into their pedagogy. They are too marketable and, rightfully so, they too frequently go on to other positions that can reward them."

Douglas-e works in an IT department right now...we prefer to know what the faculty need, but some of the higher-level admins really resist giving in sometimes--based on economic or support concerns.

Linda smiles at Jim's image of Roethke

riceman says, "So what about wireless computing? Does that free a class ethos? That is, rather than being locked into something that can't be moved, is there the sense or promise that a wireless classroom enables folk to be more 'group' centered?"

riceman wonders if the new building at TTU will be wireless...

JimK says, "I think wireless is fascinating"

Jennifer [to riceman]: it does allow us to have class outside (a wireless classroom), always nice in the spring!

JimK says, "It might convince me to buy a laptop."

Linda says, "the one academic program we have in a separate building with a wireless hub has prompted all sorts of grouping and regrouping of the participants --including outside!"

riceman recalls Fred Kemp's thread on TechRhet last year, wireless vs. desktop: http://www.bsu.edu/cw2001/laptops1.htm

Ron says, "How has the grouping and re-grouping worked? Do you see learning possibilities created in this environment that you don't see in other learning environments?"

Linda nods that Doug accurately reflects the attitude of higher-level admins at times.

riceman bows to Doug.

ColleenReilly says, "So the concerns many of you have addressed about shaping technology use leads to our next question..."

Alaskajeff says, "part of me wonders if each and every student owning the computers they use in the classroom will tend to increase "private" attitudes about works in progress. As in--"this is my screen, I'll do my part, and he can do his..." rather than a small group hunkered down in front of a public lab station, sharing the public keyboard...etc."

ubiquitous computing | obstacles to integrating computers | new trends in C&W

acceptance of online composition texts | top

ColleenReilly says, "For the most part the computers and composition community has thrived at the margins of English departments and University technology infrastructures. How can we reinvent ourselves as a community that thrives in the mainstream of university and departmental conversations"

Alaskajeff says, "really an issue of facdev and the attitudes we promote about teaching, I guess."

riceman says, "You know, something Jim tangentially hit earlier was the impact of what happens to the networked classroom when students purchase their own machines too. Something I haven't really thought about. Interesting. Changes student conversations, for sure, as well as infrastructure."

[ 9:07 pm ]

JimK says, "Also support and learning."

Susan brb

Linda says, "Yes, Ron, I have seen other learning possibilities created. But the building and program also lend themselves to innovative learning (the building was formerly a rather grand home, and the program has two classes of 15 students each semester working in the building). "

riceman says, "I've had students tell me point blank they see their dorm room computer as an extension of the classroom."

Susan has disconnected.

Douglas-e nods to Alaskajeff -- interesting question

JimK says, "Maybe I have less energy now that I have joined AARP, but I have harder time getting students to attend to the relationship of software and rhetoric. I wonder if that is part of owning their own computer."

Linda says, "Jeff is right about faculty development and attitudes determining whether we can thrive in the mainstream. "

JimK says, "It becomes an experience they do not want to share in the classroom."

James brb

JimK says, "Though if they brought their laptop into the classroom..."

riceman says, "I wonder if that's a problem computer-types have, though. We have been trained to re-invent ourselves...new is good. New is catchy, attention getting. But, I think what we need to do is think more about where we came from, what writing is, what rhetoric is."

Alaskajeff wonders if we want to thrive in the mainstream...I don't know about other schools, but here (and I'm sure elsewhere) the mainstream is still a lecture...if it is cutting edge, it includes a powerpoint presentation that is available later on the web.

Linda says, "I think we have to invite them to bring their computers into the classroom."

riceman nods to Jeff

JimK says, "powerpoint ouch"

Ron says, "I see a growing interest among people who are not the composition community becoming increasingly interested in the uses of computers in a variety of courses and the strides that those in the composition community have made positions them to relate to colleagues outside the community in a way very different from what I remember to be the case fifteen and twenty years ago. How's that for
aging myself?"

riceman considers giving Jeff a cold one, but realizes he already
probably is a cold one. ;-)

JimK says, "I see support as such a huge issue."

Alaskajeff smiles.

ophelia says, "riceman!!!"

JimK says, "A colleague will go to a workshop or have a good experience, and there is no way to build on it."

riceman nods to guest. I like to see the new breed of teacher (or the older breed changed). Those who are teachers first, but VERY computer savvy. That's who we need to fill the support ranks with.

Susan's friends arrive to cart her off to bed.

riceman smiles at ophelia.

JimK says, "It is the nightmares of WAC digitized."

JimK smiles at riceman

riceman [to JimK ]: Dickie Selfe has been concentrating lately on what he calls 'sustainable faculty development.' Crucial.

ColleenReilly [to JimK ]: That's an interesting point--I'm giving a workshop next week and I've wondered about what will happen afterwards...or not happen

JimK smiles at Dickie

ophelia [to riceman]: I disagree with you. Teachers first are not necessarily VERY computer savvy

riceman [to ophelia]: True, but some are. We need more of 'em.

riceman [to ophelia]: More importantly, I think we need more teachers in the area of support.

ophelia who lives in cyberspace still values those who teach without computers.

riceman nods to ophelia

ColleenReilly says, "well I think it's a good time to ask our broadest question"

JimK says, "I think every support person should teach some."

ubiquitous computing | obstacles to integrating computers | C&W community: mainstream or marginal

acceptance of online composition texts | top

ColleenReilly says, "What new trends do you think will occur in C&W? How will these impact C&W?"

JimK says, "xml"

Douglas-e agrees with JimK

ophelia [to JimK ]: how do you define support person?

Douglas-e . o O ( on both support and xml )

riceman says, "I think we'll see more xml and database essays, as Johndan writes about. I think sound is going to be big too."

JimK [to ophelia]: "anyone who supports a classroom

riceman says, "I think we'll see more about digital portfolios, too. XML-based digital portfolios."

JimK says, "What is a database essay. I am so out of it."

JimK says, "seriously I think we will see a different tweaking of the writing process to follow processes in it"

JimK says, "People will start talking about integration drafts for group projects and Q&A"

[ 9:17 pm ]

ophelia [to Tari]: ophelia needs tutoring in Q&A egad

riceman [to JimK ]: The concept of flexible information, given and changed by multiple people (like what you're doing with the CW2002 database), and reviewable in essay form.

JimK says, "Quality assurance"

JimK says, "aka editing"

ophelia says, "who owns the briar patch?"

Jennifer wonders how handhelds of various varieties will impact CW in the near future...

ophelia just got a handheld

JimK says, "When will we have our first palm pilot essay?"

ColleenReilly really wants a handheld!

ophelia says, "I think we already have."

riceman says, "Maybe more on the importance of writing in various electronic environments, too, what John Barber calls any-to-any reading and writing. Good book, btw, _New Worlds, New Words_: http://english.ttu.edu/kairos/6.2/reviews/davis/"

riceman nods to JimK.

Jennifer does not have a handheld, but can imagine how things must change, especially things like webdesign (back to the old text designing and small screen designing)..

Jennifer says, "nice plug there Riceman!"

riceman [to Jennifer ]: and in addition to web design, I think email writing is going to continue to change and be important.

JimK says, "with xslt, you could create essays designed to play in a palm pilot. It would be very interesting."

Jennifer thinks finally the other people stuck in lingua have given up and gone home, Oh well..

Linda says, "Okay, as another one with years behind me, I'm going to pickup on riceman's comment. Our focus is still on writing, in its fullest sense. Writing is a process of making meaning as well as communicating that meaning. As a verb, it contains the implications of discovery, of invention. If we want to set the trends for C&W to contain that broadest understanding of writing (to parallel the broad meanings of reading and of text that cultural studies has made us aware of), we will maintain our community name as Computers and Writing. We can write in all media, use all media. If we want to narrow the focus for future trends, we will change the name to Computers and Communication, two nouns. "

riceman [to JimK ]: Interesting.

Ron says, "{to Jim] But it's worth keeping in mind what you said earlier about getting students to thinking about rhetoric and writing with technology in the first place. We talk about a gap between a knowledge of technology and pedagogy but it is at least matched and maybe exceed by the gap between the technology available and the effective use of it in composition. As the technologies create new possibilities the gap could increase."

JimK agrees with Linda

Linda says, "sorry for jumping questions, but they seem to go
together."

ColleenReilly nods to Linda

riceman becomes one of those massive eyeballs from transcendentalism to read Linda's excellent comment.

JimK says, "I like to think of teaching as a form of writing"

ophelia says, "did anyone tell me who owns briar patch and I missed it?"

Susan arrives from the clearing.

riceman [to ophelia]: I think it's part of Netoric, yes?

Jennifer says, "I think the problem with the word writing, for all but us smart people (wink), is that writing means words-- "text" in the traditional sense. How can we move beyond that? How can we allow writing to be animations and sounds? "

JimK says, "or how can we get people to see that that is writing and move beyond words"

Alaskajeff says, "I think 'composition' is a more fitting word for what I'd like to see myself teaching."

ophelia [to riceman]: oh, okay. I love Uncle Remus

Susan [to Jennifer ]: I usually talk with my students about movies and TV programs are 'written' because someone actually writes the script-- and musicians 'write' songs.. The fact that the texts gets performed doesn't change the fact that it is based in text, even if only behind the scenes.

JimK smiles at performance

riceman recalls vv's MOO performance at CW2k

Jennifer wonders about Technical Communication. We were recently Technical Writing (ad still are for many). What's the difference? Not only between the two (w and c) but also between that are and this area. Should it be Technical Composition?

ophelia [to Jennifer ]: I disagree writing needs to be that,

JimK says, "recalls kip strasma arguing that students need to create performances from readings of afternoon."

Linda says, "I still want to add a couple other points about new trends that will impact C&W--changing admission standards at universities are pushing many students to community colleges who may not have the same resources some of us have fought for. That perhaps opens opportunities for more "distance" courses and OWLS, etc. "

riceman [to Jennifer ]: I was just noticing how many tech/comm jobs there are this year

JimK [to Jennifer ]: I hope not

Jennifer [to Susan]: I'm not sure that movies are writing because someone wrote the script. I think they are writing for other (bigger?) reasons

Susan says, "I also think we metaphorical, abstract people are more comfortable thinking of everything as text. The whole world is a text...."

Jennifer [to JimK ]: hope not what?

Douglas-e [to Linda ]: actually, I think you'll find that many community colleges are actually bringing in technology pretty quickly--sometimes surpassing the local university.

Susan [to Jennifer ]: they are 'writing' in that they convey a crafted message, but most students need the script argument to buy into that idea of what writing means.

JimK says, "I hope computers and writing will always be Writing and maintain an identity distinct form TC. And I am a TC faculty member."

ColleenReilly [to douglas-e ]: I can attest to that

[ 9:27 pm ]

riceman says, "writing is using the graphic, the aural, the videographic. We just "see" those things as communication or as something we compose, methinks. But it's writing. We read, we write. Right? How do you define "visual literacy?""

JimK says, "don't forget "secondary visual literacy"

Susan . o O ( tertiary orality )

riceman nods to JimK. I think we do need more people bringing Ong into today's world.

Douglas-e says, "now the task is to make sure our community college colleagues are made aware that there are communities and journals and conferences that can help them to more effectively use the technology they suddenly find at their disposal."

Jennifer says, "So JimK what do you see as a difference between Computer and Writing here (using the word "writing") and Technical Communication there (using the word "Communication"). I do want them to be different, I'm not trying to say they shouldn't be, but wonder at the focus and preference of writing in one case and communication in the other."

JimK says, "I have taught web authoring classes with TC students, creative writing students, lit students and children's lit students. I think CW should and does embrace that diversity."

Susan [to JimK ]: Trust me. Computers and Writing is quite different than TC.

Jennifer is only beginning to discover Ong, what books are you talking about?

Susan grins

Linda says, "If you consider the number of initiatives (WAC, WID or Writing in the Disciplines, Writing to Learn) that universities have spawned to expand the concept of "writing" beyond the production of text, you can begin to imagine the larger understanding that exists outside our domains too. Certainly among the artists and
anthropologists and historians and architects that I talk with here, the concept is larger than communication. "

JimK [to Jennifer ]: I guess I think of TC as a career if that helps, people who are writing in organizations as a career so it involve professional issues as much as issues of discovery.

Linda agrees with JimK

Jennifer says, "is itcommunicationommunication? Isn't writing all about communnication? Unless one is writing only for/to one's self.."

Susan says, "I know lots of teachers who use various types of technology, but don't read the scholarship or really engage much with the theory. I worry that they dismiss what goes on in CW by beinglensent to only theorize technology through the lense of general composition theory."

ophelia [to Linda ]: larger than communication? how so?

riceman [to Jennifer ]: Or, isn't communication all about writing.... some 10 years ago, or so, Eric Crump spoke about the use of the & as opposed to 'and'. C&W means more than C and W, somehow. It's as if, because it's a symbol that becomes a metaphor for something beyond, the & embraces communication.

JimK smiles at Susan

ophelia [to Linda ]: if not communication, what is it?

Susan says, "Some are effective teachers, but they don't approach things the same we many in CW do."

Linda says, "Writing is larger than communication, but because it incorporates the making of meaning as well as the transaction."

Jennifer nods to ophelia

JimK says, "are we separating the roles of publisher and writer
here :}"

Jennifer says, "doesn't communication also include the making of meaning? To communicate the message must make sense, some sense in some context"

Susan says, "I'd almost the say the difference is that we are a bit more radical, while they remain more traditional-- you know focusing more on print text, while we consider new definitions of writing and have students write in different media."

Susan says, "in fact, that is exactly the difference."

JimK [to Susan]: "Does C&W have theory that is separate from comp theory?

Susan [to Jennifer ]: that's why all communication is writing, and why writing teachers must inevitably rule the world.

Susan giggles.

Ron says, "I see in what Linda says a point about C&W that bears remembering and that is, while we call it a community, it is a very diverse one with a range of knowledge, expertise, interests and we need to be as aware of how different we are within the group as much as we are aware of how much we have shared interests that bring us together in the first place."

Linda says, "Right on, Susan!"

Susan says, "but seriously, a lot of it turf battle."

Susan says, "is"

JimK cheers for diversity

Susan says, "aw, just fill in the missing words."

JimK says, "That is one of the many things I find exciting about C&W"

riceman is reminded of Web Newbold's work in the transactional nature of MOO pedagogy, http://english.ttu.edu/kairos/4.1/binder.html?features /newbold/bridgenw.html

Linda applauds keeping the diversity of this community

Susan creates MOO shorthand-- leave out every fifth word to save screen space.

Susan grins.

Jennifer says, "so can animals write? Some seem able to communicate..."

JimK says, "What if you talk in four word sentences?"

Linda laughs

riceman [to Jennifer ]: MOOOOooooo

--------------------------------- ophelia ---------------------------------
Let's pause for a moment and consider our own baggage as we talk of
writing, of communication.
-------------------------- ophelia stops pasting --------------------------

JimK says, "This can be a virtual who's line is it"

Jennifer says, "Okay let me add... What about rhetoric? Where does rhetoric stand with writing and communication?"

riceman [to JimK ]: What do you mean?

JimK says, "That was cool"

JimK [to ophelia]: "How did you do that?

[ 9:37 pm ]

Susan [to JimK ]: about theory, yes and no. There is a great deal of overlap, but I also think CW gets people asking and thinking about new and different sorts of questions about writing. Would general comp theory ever lead to the issues brought up in Bolter and grusin's _Remediation_?

Susan [to JimK ]: or to the work that's been done with hypertext theory?

JimK [to Susan]: I keep imagining a new kind of writing class where such issues are possible without the baggage of hypertext.

James needs to go, waves to everyone

Susan [to JimK ]: of to Spooner and Yancey's new essay-- like the Vielstiemmig essay?

riceman waves to James

James has disconnected.

JimK [to Susan]: or rather the baggage of general education

Susan says, "But there are ways to push the envelope without computers, it's just that a lot of that takes place within CW too."

Susan [to JimK ]: what do you mean?

ophelia [to JimK ]: first you do @paste. Then hit enter. After that enter your text. At the end of your text hit enter then type a . and hit the enter key. Try it

JimK [to ophelia]: thanks I will

JimK says, "What envelop are we talking about?"

riceman says, "Envelopes can be dangerous in this day and age."

Jennifer says, "well everyone, I'm leaving for a conference tomorrow and unless you are more organized than I, you know what a last minute rush that means... so I must leave and do a zillion things"

JimK smiles

Susan [to JimK ]: rethinking and reconceptualizing what writing is and what there is to theorize about it.

Susan grins at riceman

riceman says, "Thanks Jenn!"

JimK waves

Jennifer says, "colleen is holding down the fort... have a good rest of discussion..."

ophelia [to JimK ]: you mention the baggage of hypertext. I think we have to work on simplifying, at least initially. Early on I mentioned the class I have who are slow learners. I want to move them to being able to use technology but to do so without frustration and a feeling of inferiority.

Susan waves to Jennifer

riceman says, "Did we address all of the questions?"

ColleenReilly [to riceman]: Yes, actually we did!

JimK says, "Where are you starting?"

Ron says, "Thanks for setting this up, Jenn"

JimK says, "Oops that was to ophelia"

Linda says, "Good question, Jennifer. Since curricular lines occasionally determine distinctions, I'd say that rhetoric at this time in history is the theoretical slant on writing and communication. Our speech department claims rhetoric too--at a theoretical level. The negative connotations of the word rhetoric in common/political use and the demise of rhetoric as the dominant course of study within the last 200 years both contribute to placing rhetoric at the theoretical level."

James's friends arrive to cart him off to bed.

ophelia [to JimK ]: starting where? what do you mean?

Jennifer says, "your welcome, glad we all could make it"

Jennifer prepares to leave...

riceman says, "Note: we might make sure we include the "worthwhile online composition texts" discussion here...important topic right now."

JimK says, "Sorry, where are you starting your class of slow learners"

Linda says, "bye, Jennifer"

Jennifer has disconnected.

The disconnected Jennifer decides e's outstayed eir welcome and
goes home.

JimK [to riceman]: what are they?

Ron says, "[to Rich] what is the worthwhile online composition texts thread?"

Alaskajeff says, "I was just reading a student's blog--he wrote "in the 13th century, all a person had to do was learn to read and write. These days, we have so much technology that we can never learn all the ways to communicate..." Interesting juxtaposition for me..."

ubiquitous computing | obstacles to integrating computers | C&W community: mainstream or marginal

new trends in C&W | top

Linda says, "riceman suggests that we shift gears--to discuss not only online composition texts but also their acceptance."

ColleenReilly [to riceman]: Ooops I forgot that one--thanks!

riceman [to alaskajeff ]: That *is* interesting.

[ 9:47 pm ]

JimK [to riceman]: are you writing one

ophelia hugs jimk and says softly don't say sorry. :) where am I
starting? well at ground zero. :)

Susan says, "literacy wasn't very widespread then, was it?"

Linda says, " Acceptance of online work is a crucial issue for promotion, tenure, etc. in this community"

riceman [to JimK ]: "smirk. Not sure anything I write is worthwhile. ;-)

JimK nods in agreement

Susan [to alaskajeff ]: yeah, in Latin.

Susan grins

riceman says, "Yeah, a huge discussion with 7Cs right now: http://www.ncte.org/positions/4c-tp-tech.html"

JimK [to ophelia]: what do you want them to learn?

Alaskajeff [to Susan]: yeah...not a huge deal (he thinks) just learning to read and write Latin in the 13th century.

ophelia [to JimK ]: this may sound silly at the moment, but right now I want them to learn to follow directions and a sense of responsibility.

JimK says, "With no spaces between words!"

Susan nods to aslaskajeff. Be eye opening to ask him to research that
for a project.

JimK [to ophelia]: my wife teaches third and fourth grade BD,
that is her whole life.

ColleenReilly [to ophelia]: My MOO tutorial that I gave my students the other day speaks to the problems with that!

Susan grins at ophelia.

riceman says, "Like who should receive tenure? Someone who has written 2 online texts, or someone who has written 1 paper text? We need some good scenarios and definitions of what is good in online environments."

ophelia [to JimK ]: "that" meaning teaching kids to follow directions and be responsible?

Linda says, "7C's is working on some materials on-line that will be linked to the CCCC's and MLA materials about professional review for tenure and promotion."

ophelia [to ColleenReilly]: how so?

riceman is intrigued with Linda's note

Ron says, "[to Linda] As I recall, an online book publication was part of the scenario your group had people respond to in the case studies you set up. Has anything emerged from that exercise that bears on online composition texts?"

JimK says, "At most schools the heart of tenure is national peer review and recognition. I do not think they will have trouble getting online texts accepted when we can demonstrate those two things."

Susan says, "might begin with giving them things to look for-- a scavenger hunt where the goal is to find out how to do something-- like looking for a piece of info on the web."

Linda says, "Those materials should be ready by NCTE . . . we hope. They include scenarios and responses by department chairs, chairs of P&T committees and Deans."

JimK [to ophelia]: I would start with printing. Give them things to take home and put on the frig.

Susan says, "it is perhaps less frustrating when the figuring out is the end and not just the means."

riceman [to JimK ]: Interesting point. You know, Doug Eyman has stats on how frequently read Kairos is. I wonder if something could be setup to give those stats to those who write the pieces.

Susan . o O ( I should try that someday. )

Ron says, "[to Linda] Did you find in the responses you received any controversy brewing on this point?"

Linda says, "Jim is right about national peer review and recognition. But often the P&T committees need to be educated about those processes for online materials. "

JimK [to riceman]: we have got to make these cases ourselves. Develop and share this info.

riceman [to Linda ]: Wow! That'd be very useful to all sorts of people.

JimK says, "Education is often the key part of any tenure review"

riceman [to JimK ]: I agree.

ColleenReilly says, "Well should we wrap this up?"

JimK says, "Good idea I am exhausted. This is the longest I have ever survived in a moo"

Susan cheers for JimK!

Ron says, "OK"

ColleenReilly hates to suggest that but it's late for her!

Alaskajeff realizes he's waaay late for dinner...

JimK 11 pm eastern time

riceman [to JimK ]: you know, something I was in constant amazement with last year during CW2001, is that there have been some 17 and soon to be 18 years of the CW conference. That really points to the validity of writing both about and in electronic environments, methinks.

ColleenReilly says, "Thanks to everyone for coming and working through the problems we had!!"

riceman says, "Thanks Colleen!"

JimK says, "great ending comment"

riceman says, "Again, sorry for the switch 'cause of BSU."

JimK says, "no problem"

ColleenReilly [to riceman]: We needed you here!

ColleenReilly says, "So it all worked out...!"

Susan cheers riceman

riceman says, "Hey, we're really looking forward to CW2002. Shaping up nicely?"

Linda says, "The controversies in the materials I reviewed came because individuals were given tasks (usually associated with technology, training, or administration) that were then discounted toward tenure, OR the peer review was not clearly established. I do think we've made progress in acceptance of online work--but there were a couple of responses that clearly indicated that traditional publishing venues had to be used in addition."

JimK absolutely

JimK come to normal

riceman says, "Yeah, normal or bust."

ColleenReilly says, "interesting slogan!"

Susan says, "Be Normal."

riceman says, "I'm sure y'all have a ton of 'em."

Linda says, "see you in Normal!"

JimK beyond normal

riceman laughs

[ 9:58 pm ]

Susan says, "that's why I'm going out of town tomorrow-- can;t stay Normal too long."

Susan grins

Linda says, "Thanks Colleen and Jennifer!"

Ron says, "[to Colleen] Thanks for putting this together. Back
to Normal."

JimK says, "my son is getting grumpy this is the longest he has been off the computer in weeks. bye everyone."

Susan says, "Hyper-Normal"

JimK has disconnected.

ColleenReilly says, "Thanks for being here!"

riceman says, "Yes, I've got to get back to Normal myself."

Log stopped.

ubiquitous computing | obstacles to integrating computers | C&W community: mainstream or marginal

new trends in C&W | acceptance of online composition texts | top

vol. 6 Iss. 2 Fall 2001