Conference on Argumentation DraftsPresent: Angie Satterfield (Angie1), Xiao Wang (xiao), Jeff White (JcWhite), Dan Irvin (Dan), Sue Inman (Sue), Melissa Kirkwood (Melissa), Webster Newbold (No1)
Transaction Key
MULTI-PARTY Transactions
- DARK BLUE relates to "negotiating" around the emergence of a text
Dan's essay | Angie's essay | Sue's essay | Melissa's essay
Discussion about essays by Dan | Angie | Sue | Melissa
- TEAL relates to playful excursions
*Dan* Melissa is looking at the drafts now
*No1* Good! Is Jeff thereabouts? Ask him to "LOG ON"
*Dan* I'll try to find him
*No1* SO, Dan says his trip to England had "some business" in it. And mostly pleasure! Last year I was in England in March and it was cold! Dan says it was beautiful this year! Why does Dan deserve the good weather, I want to know!
*Sue showed* http://www.inetdirect.net/
*No1* Hello Sue! How have you been?
*Dan* Angie and Jeff wll be here in a minute
*Sue* Woeking TOOMANY hours, 45 so far this week!!!
*No1* Sue, can't yo utell them to take leap when they try to overwork you?
*Sue* I think I am a sucker for the money.
*No1* Aren't we all. Where'd Melissa go???
*No1* Sue, where are you in your Project 4 process?
*JcWhite* Howdy.
*Angie1* nice
*Sue* My rough draft is not done, but I have done some interesting research. Did you know there is a "lost" 13th amendment ?
*Angie1* ditch the blond
*No1* Hi, Angie1 where's the usual Angie-plain?
*Angie1* problems
*Angie1* its a blond thing
*Angie1* but I'll answer to angie-plain
*No1* Who's blond? Will somebidy tell me?
*Angie1* or angie-plane
*Angie1* me!
*No1* OK, we have Dan, Melissa, Angie, and Sue, as well as theregular highly-paid, efficient staff!
*Sue* High enough paid so I could work there instead of where I do?
*No1* Sue, I don't know--but i doubt it!
*Sue* Well, It was worth a try...
*No1* Where do we stand on familiarity with each other's drafts? We need to read the ones we're discussing at least.
*Dan* read and ready
*Sue showed* http://www.bsu.edu/classes/eng103/
*Angie1* I read my groups drafts
*Melissa* I haven
*Melissa* 'sorry.
*Melissa* I haven't read any, but I look at the topics.
*No1* And unfortunately, no one with a draft is here fro that group!
*Sue* Sorry for the sends, I cant get my Send url to turn off. I have not read the drafts.
*Angie1* oh darn
*Angie1* hey, Thursday is the 3rd
*Angie1* not the 4th
*Melissa* We have people from both groups.
*No1* Did I get my days wrong?
*Angie1* sure did
*No1* Gosh, just shoot me now and get it over wih...
*No1* Oops I forgot about the hunting thing...
*xiao* we are fine...
*Angie1* look out
*Melissa* Can we start? I would like to get home to my husband. Today is our 7-month anniversary!
*No1* Let's start with Melissa!!!
*xiao* Congradualtions! Melissa.
*Angie1* yes, lets!
*No1* Her topic is.....well...gosh....errr....
*Melissa* I see, everybody gang up on me!!
*Melissa* SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*xiao* sex at 60 or 70.
*Dan* I have to step out for a minute........just kidding
*No1* What I want to know is this: How did Melissa get to be the Dr. Ruth of Ball STate?
*Melissa* I'm sorry. Was I too blunt?!
*Melissa* I plead the 5th to you No1
*No1* Seriously, Melissa, have yo ubeen studying this topic recently?
*Melissa* Well, I am in a sexual behavior class right now, and we just watched a film over the subject.
*No1* Describe it for us!
*Angie1 whispered* you sicko
*Melissa* The film or the class?
*No1* The film's contents relevant to your essay.
*Melissa* EVERYTHING!!
*Melissa* Except for maybe dealing with the handicapped.
*No1* Hold on, do you mean somebody at Ball State is showing sexually explicit materials?
*Melissa* Oh, my god!!!!!
*Melissa* ;o)
*No1* Well, don't tell oyur congresperson...
*Melissa* The prof actually talks about penises, vaginas, and vibrators in class.
*No1* So, has anyone else seen melissa's essay on Sex in the Aged?
*Angie1* where's Pat?
*Angie1* briefly
*No1* Dan, have you read it?
*No1* Sue has disappeared, maybe she's reading it?
*Dan* Not yet
*Dan* We did have lots of discussion about it last week
*Melissa* Someone say something, please.
*Angie1* ok
*No1* OK, Melissa, what do you want to do ARGUMENTATIVLY with the essay?
*JcWhite* I will, I am wondering what do the readers see as the argument in this essay.
*No1* Or ARGUMENTATIVELY
*Melissa* I'm not sure. I don't feel like I can make a real strong stance on the topic....just give the audience the info and let them decide.
*No1* But decide about what?
*Melissa* Whether they want to keep believing the myth or not.
*Dan* Maybe an argument that this type of information should be shared as a more open topic
*Melissa* What myth? That people do have sex in their "older" years--No1 (wink, wink).
*No1* OK, now we're going too far...
*Dan* There is a small group of people that would call this type of writing perverted
*No1* I AM NOT YET 50!
*Angie1* Me thinks thou protests to much
*Melissa* Yep, no1 is making himself to be too obvious.
*No1* Back to the essay: In argumentation, the idea is to help the audience make up their minds in the writer's favor.
*Melissa* Well, Dan, I agree with you, but those people would be the ones less open to the idea--even if they do have sex.
*No1* So, maybe you should nudge them toward a belief in a claim that your essay supports.
*Angie1* what is your main claim in your piece?
*Melissa* I had a thesis statement in my first paragraph: I would like to correct this myth, because I believe that there are many aged people who continue to have healthy sex lives. How much clearer can I be?
*Angie1* i guess i'm no t that familiar with the myth, sorry
*Melissa* I just explained the myth above.
*No1* What evidence for the myth can you see around us?
*Dan* not me
*Melissa* Well, I gave the example in my paper that when people think about sex, they usually think about young, healthy people and not older, disabled people.
*No1* OK; so media, magazines, movies, People Magazine, Playboy, etc. all contribute to the youth and sex culture.
*Melissa* Yep!!
*No1* OK. And how much of a lie is this myth? I think a pretty big one (I have to, at my age...)
*Melissa* There you go again. We aren't attacking you...we promise...ha.
*Sue showed* http://www.inetdirect.net/
*Dan* For some people perception is reality and unfortunately they miss out on some quality time
*No1* At any rate, I guess my point is one of emphasis, not so much factual content. In argumentation, the attitude writers present themselves in is an oppositional one, even if it is polite.
*Melissa* I think that mine is oppositional.
*Melissa* We might want to get started on someone else's topic.
*JcWhite* How is yours oppositional melissa?
*JcWhite* I am seeing a section on facts about men, facts about women, facts about the two, and then a re-statement---but no argument towards something in those facts.
*Melissa* I am upfront with my main claim, I support it with evidence, and then reemphasis the topic at the end.
*No1* OK, who's familiar with Dan's essay on prayer in schools?
*Angie1* hold on a sec
*No1* Dan supports prayer in public schools. I guess I wasn't quite as clear as I might be on the nature of the "prayer" you're suggesting, Dan.
*Dan* Normally a quiet time for meditation of any kind, prayer, clearing your head, reflecting on somehing or whatever
*Angie1 whispered* No1- in reguard to melissa maybe a topic such as the medias portrayel of the older adult as not as sexualy atractive in advertising, etc.
*Dan* Nothing big, just an option for the students
*Melissa* They have that choice at lunch time or recess or whatever.
*No1 whispered to Angie1* Yes, that's right. I've made some separate comments to Melissa about her essay.
*Dan* But nothing structured, that would encourage them to deveope their inner feelings
*Angie1* lie 30 seconds at te end of morning announcements?
*Melissa* I might have the teacher let the students know that they should feel comfortable praying to whatever religion they believe during like lunchtime or such.
*Dan* My argument is for those who absolutly d not want any type of payer or religeous function associated with the school
*Melissa* Well, those people can't stop silent prayer during lunch or something.
*No1* Dan, I take your point about the desirability of developing spiritual awareness in young people. I guess I'm concerned about the issue of separation of church and state. The Supreme Court has not indicated it sees the issue any differently now than it did 30 years ago--a public school cannot present religious observances. Is your porposal intended to get around this bar?
*Angie1* but if on or two children are allowed to pray a parent can say they are influencing my child with their prayer.
*Dan* The original itent of this seperation had no intent to stop prayer in school it was developed to deter a religion from running th government.
*Melissa* Maybe they should have a class for religions, so that others can become more aware of the different kinds that exist. I know one of my most interesting classes my freshman year in college was a class about different religions and their literature.
*No1* Well, Melissa, I think there should be classes in religion; but some persons would object who felt that THEIR religion was being portrayed in an inappropriate way.
*Dan* Children will be infulenced by many things in school. I dnt believe religion is a ngative infulence and would probably give the parents and stuents something to talk about
*Sue* But where do you draw the line... prayer could lead to having to teaching religion to discrimination because of religious preference
*Angie1* or think abot what passes as religion these days,
*JcWhite* In a "moment of silence," are we "preferencing A religion?
*Sue* a teacher is an authority figure, children believe what the teacher tells them, what if this teacher doen't believe the same thing you believe?
*Melissa* I really don't believe that discrimination would be that much of a problem, because of the wide spread information available on other varieties of religion.
*Dan* Unfortunately no one will determine what is morally acceptable and what is not so all religion is taboo in the school. I believe what is good for society as a whole is ok.
*Sue* Religion is not negative, but think about the heavens gate group.
*No1* How about this scenario--in a public school in an inner city where ther is a predominance of Muslim immigrants (like parts of Detroit), parents insist that students stop 5 times a day to pray toward Mecca. Where do the non-Muslims fit in when their classmates are bowing to the Esat?
*Angie1* exactly
*JcWhite* I suppose the amount of time or the selected time of day might actually have implications that people of religions different from Christianity might find odd.
*Melissa* Teach the class from the historical position. That's the way my college course was taught, and it didn't offend anyone.
*Angie1* but children not of a college age may have trouble deciding about religion
*Sue* Teach that the differences are ok, that's what makes the world interesting.
*JcWhite* Ah, No1 has made my point, and made it better and quicker...see he's not old.
*Angie1* young children are easily swayed by their peers
*Melissa* It's not a point of deciding on a religion--Angie.
*Melissa* Good point, Sue....that's what I have been trying to say.
*JcWhite* We might be confusing Religious Studies with practice of religion.
*Sue* Could religious tolerance lead to racial tolerance?
*No1* Jeff--yes. I don't think the Supreme Court would find a problem with the study of comparative religions, but they would if there was actual WORSHIP in the mode of one of these religions.
*Angie1* why couldn't the child pray at home before school?
*Dan* In todays society this lack of direction from parents and children even understanding the options. This gets us a group of youth with low moral values
*Melissa* But I think that Dan's point isn't really the practice of religion, but more them feeling comfortable to practice it.
*JcWhite* Sue, what I see in what you are saying is an interesting point I had never thought of before, think of Dr. ML King's dream speech--black children and white children playing together as tolerance. Equally good is the thought of Muslims, Christians...
*JcWhite* and others praying together though differently.
*Dan* Do the negatives out wigh the positives in school prayer? My opinion is that there are many more positives
*No1* I think we may have missed Dan's main point, the moral value of religious discipline. Is that right, Dan?
*Melissa* I really don't want to be rude, but I think that I will be leaving in the next 15 minutes.
*Dan* Yes that is the point
*Melissa* Dan--that is more than likely from a Judao-Christian outlook. What about a Buddist, or Jewish or whatever outlook.
*JcWhite* But back to Angie's point, why not pray at home and have high morals through that practice?
*No1* I still think you may want to think about the church/state issue. It goes beyond the intention of our 18th century founders somewhat to the contexts of the present.
*No1* Dan, is it all right if we go on? You have a great topic, but time marches...
*Sue* does prayer = high moral standards?
*JcWhite whispered* he's talking to melissa, I think it is okay.
*JcWhite* Good point Sue...very good.
*Angie1* Jim Jones?
*Angie1* Heavens Gate?
*Sue* Hilter
*No1* Let's go on to Angie and hunting. OK?
*JcWhite* I did not mean to make that equation, though I did.
*Dan* Not always, but it but as a whole it helps
*Angie1* cults, but still they considered this religions
*No1* HHHHHHHHHHEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
*Angie1* ok
*Angie1* how about it
*JcWhite* It's fun.
*JcWhite* It's cruel.
*JcWhite* It's beneficial.
*JcWhite* Next.
*JcWhite* :)
*No1* Angie, who were you trying to reach mainly?
*Angie1* the non hunting public
*Angie1* not the anti hunters
*Angie1* big difference
*JcWhite* That is a distinction you might make a bit more clear in the essay.
*JcWhite* Small point.
*No1* And what were you trying to get across to the non-hunting public?
*Angie1* that hunters are not quite the bad guys/girls the media etc portrays them to be
*Angie1* we are beneficial to the enviroment
*Sue* I also feel you might be targeting the gun control non hunters???
*Angie1* maybe:)
*Angie1* i am not against some gun restrictions
*Angie1* but to totally outlaw guns would be assnine
*Angie1* that would be a different argument
*No1* Angie, one thing you might want to do is to make the details of the laws a little clearer. The Act you mention kind of hangs there without context. Could you clarify what it is and does?
*Sue* But, like anything common sense must be used to decide what is appropriate, whether it is the animal activists or gun control
*No1* I refer to the Pittman-Robertson Act
*Angie1* the Pittman act makes the moneies from guns ammo licenses go towards the
*Sue* Does the Pittman-Robertson Act deal with the use of excise tax?
*Angie1* protection and preservation of these species and lands
*No1* Is that new law, an old one?
*Angie1* yes it is an excise tax
*Angie1* an old one
*Angie1* but a good one
*Angie1* around 1920 it was enacted
*No1* Angie, do you have much scientific evidence that supports the idea that animal population is effectively controlled by hunting?
*Angie1* not in front of me this evening
*Angie1* but i do have some info on that
*Angie1* should i add that to my paper?
*Dan* Give your readers undisputable facts
*Dan* State it in a way that makes them a believer
*Angie1* from the pittman act
*Sue* that information would make the purpose of the P-R act more understandable
*Angie1* 6.5 billion dollars went to budget state fish and wildlife agecies
*No1* Angie, I don't think yo need to go all out in this assignment with notes and all that. (Our next essay will be based more on research.) But you might mention the fact that animal pop. control has been studies and hunting is one effective way to do it.
*Angie1* ok
*No1* Can we move on to Sue and her topic?
*Melissa* I'm going to leave. Bye.
*No1* Bye.
*No1* Sue, what topic are you thinking of? Or decided on?
*Sue* the future of the electorial college in the election of the president
*No1* OK, so is there a controversy here?
*JcWhite* I think, from last weeks discussion, that Sue is ready to start one with her argument.
*Dan* Do you know who the opposition is? Is it elected officals or the general public.
*Sue* general public against the electorial college
*Dan* Who is for it?
*Sue* the major parties, democratic and republican
*No1* Why are they for it?
*Sue* In 1992 Bush was elected by the elected by the popular vote, but Clinton won because he carried the states witht h e biggest electorial college
*JcWhite* So in the small states, bush won hugely, but in the large ones he barely won?
*Sue* The less populated states don't seem to matter.
*Dan* In soe cases your vote wont count if you are in the minority. Is this true, Sue?
*No1* In 1992, didn't Clinton get 40%, Bush 40% and Perot almost 20%? Or did I miss something?
*Angie1* lol
*Sue* but clinton carried the bigger states
*No1 whispered to Angie1* Angie, what does "lol" mean?
*Sue* So he got more electorial votes.
*JcWhite* So the 40% is of electoral votes..?
*JcWhite* or popular votes?
*Angie1 whispered* laugh out loud, ask JCwhite
*Sue* I think he popular votes
*No1* True. So, Sue, what is your main idea here--your main argumentative claim?
*No1 whispered to Angie1* Thanks. I get it now.
*No1* Well: you could either argue that the EC should be abolished or retained.
*JcWhite* That the EC was for a different time different era?
*Sue* I think the electorial college is not necessarily representative of what the gen public really thinks.
*No1* So, you are for abolishing it and directly electing the president?
*xiao* then it should be abolished?
*Angie1* I thnk it has lost its purpose
*Sue* The confusing part is..... I discovered that the electorial college was set up because our forefathers did not want the gen public to elect our officials
*Angie1* the poor uneducated public
*No1* Yes, we in Indiana have "puny" votes when it comes to electing presidents, while our neighbors to the est and west have BIG votes.
*Sue* I think the gen public should elect them
*Dan* I have to leave, gallon of milk, loaf of bread, you know the routine. My mind is spinning with thoghts of sex, religion, animals and politics. Will someone help me find my car. See you next week.
*Angie1* why bother voting if the EC does decide who is pres.
*No1* Sue, that's not confusing, that's history. In 1793, democracies were a rare breed and the latest attempt in France was pretty bloody and chaotic.
*No1* Dan--are yo OK?
*No1* Dan's gone! Can anyone revive him!
*JcWhite* He just logged out.
*Angie1* no but I have a car
*No1* But has he PASSED out?
*Angie1* i can track him down
*Sue* Then it is time to look at the present and let us the voting public decide who should actually run the government
*No1* Well, if he can still drive, we'd better let him go.
*JcWhite* Don't let Angie go after any one with that Deer killing chevy of hers.
*No1* So, Sue, how many reasons do we have in favor of your abolitionist stance?
*Angie1* I also have a dodge truck at my disposal
*No1* 1. small states treated unequally
*Sue* I have about equal for and against, that is my major stumbling block.
*No1* Well, then yo umight consider middle ground. You could defend a claim that it would be unwise to abolish the EC since there were wtill some important reasons for keeping it. Does that make sense?
*Sue* that does make sense.
*Sue* my gut response is that the EC shouldn't exist, but I realize it does serve a purpose
*No1* "The EC may seem like an anachronistic anti-democratic institution, but abolishing it may have unwanted consequences" or something like that?
*JcWhite* what purpose?
*Sue* To prevent chaos
*JcWhite* Wow, that's quite a purpose.
*Sue* to keep structure in society
*xiao* what kind of chaos? be specific...
*JcWhite* the icky kind of chaos that worked against maxwell smart in the 60's
*Angie1* icky?
*Sue* the poor might have something to say and the rich may not like what they are hearing
*No1* Well, Sue, give it a good think and see what you come up with. You sould try to geta draft in quickly, as the class will be submitting final versions next week!
*JcWhite* Is it a rich, poor thing? I am not so sure in this case.
*Sue* I will try to have the rough draft in tomorrow and then work on the final draft this weekend.
*JcWhite* Every "general public" vote is the same rich or poor--they are banded together by state populations, not wealth.
*No1* In a way, the EC may benefit the poor if they are congregated i large metro areas, which tend to be in high electoral-vote states.
*Sue* I don't really feel it is a rich/poor issue,
*Angie1* more of a control issue?
*Angie1* who has the power?
*No1* This is not a simple issue--which is probably why we still have an electoral college!
*Sue* good point
*JcWhite* I have my Masters degree from Electoral College, actually. It is a pretty campus.
*No1* You might consider that the "bg state" concept helps the big parties in their campaigns--they can concentrate their efforts in a few place and save moneyu.
*Sue* where is the campus, I might want to visit
*No1* that's BIG STATE
*Angie1* sue, I'll drive
*JcWhite* yes, politicians visit very specific states and places whn they go around--10 trips to Californians one to North Dakota.
*No1* Zip to Muncie
*xiao* or zoom to Muncie..
*JcWhite* It is on an island.
*No1* Say did I tell you that when I flew outto Phoenix last month Dan Quayle was on the plane?
*xiao* Really?
*Sue* thanks for all the great ideas, my mind is going a mile a min. Is it time to go so I can get to work?
*JcWhite* You cannot drive to that island Angie--you might hit a shark.
*No1* No kidding! But Marilyn wasn't with him.
*Angie1* new head design for the door
*No1* Bye Sue--good luck!
*JcWhite* Lucky marilyn...poor you.
*xiao* did you talk to him?
*No1* Hey, Danny's OK! Such a luscious pink complexion!
*Angie1* don't go there
*xiao* From eating what?
*Angie1* potatoes?
*No1* No, he was in First Class and disdained to talk to commoners. But he was waiting byb the baggage claim...
*JcWhite* Yea, I actually kind of liked him--not nearly as dumb as the media made him out to be.
*JcWhite* Stealing luggage.
*No1* Maybe we could get him to speak at the Dragons conference....?
*Angie1* or waiting for Marilyn?
*xiao* did e have bodyguard?
*No1* Funny, he didn't have an obvious bodyguard..,
*JcWhite* Well, we have Gerald Graff...I don't know how they would fit together, but I'll run it by the committee.
*xiao* May be a hidden one..
*Angie1* who would want to go to jail for hurting dan quail
*No1* Ha ha ha
*xiao* LOL
*JcWhite* The guys in prison might not respect that.
*Angie1* I still have my car.
*No1* Angie, I thought you said "HUNTING Dan Quayle"
*Angie1* HURTING
*JcWhite* Same thing.
*No1* Power of suggestion etc.
*Angie1* quail, pheasent
*No1* HUNTING...QUAIL get it?
*Angie1* hahaha
*Angie1* I'm not that blond
*Angie1* I got it
*No1* Well, I think the string is almost run out. My brain is weaving
*JcWhite* mine too.
*xiao* mine, too.
*Angie1* gotta warm up the car
*Angie1* see ya
*xiao* Let's go home.
*No1* OK, thanks you all. See you later.
*xiao* see ta..
*JcWhite* look out deer....here she comes.
*xiao* see ya
*xiao* bye..
*Angie1* funny guy
*Angie1* bye!
*JcWhite* laugh a minute.
*JcWhite* bye.