MOO session log for Computers and Writing 2000 Online session
Town Hall 1
Coordinated by Michael Day, Northern Illinois University
April 20, 2000, 8:00
p.m. EST
On Selfe Street, at the MOO Connections
[log started Thu Apr 20 19:56:23 2000 EDT]
Participants: dano, mday, Tari, Bradley, traci, shadow, MikeS, James, Sherry, the tan guest, MrFurious, Beckster, Douglas, Saffista, the lavender guest, the Dutch guest, ChrisJ, Eric, the striped guest, slang (guest), and Kafkaz
mday says, "Welcome everyone to the online version of Town Hall One for Computers and Writing 2K!"
Grigar (guest) says, "topo ethnic"
Bradley claps.
Grigar (guest) says, "too "
scog2 claps, too.
James cheers
dano claps
Saffista joins in the clapping
Tari claps@
traci waves howdy to Saffista
MikeS gives a big west texas YEE-HAW
Tari says, "with an @ sign!"
MikeS giggles
dano waves at saffista
Saffista waves to dano
mday says, "We have about 5 of our presenters here with us tonight. Let me remind you that the URL for the positions statements is http://www.hu.mtu.edu/~awysocki/cw2K/th1.html"
mday says, "er, position statements. Please take a look at them if you want to discuss them!"
[ 8:06 pm ]
MikeS cuts and pastes
MikeS notes he's been outbid on ebay for the picturebook he wanted
mday says, "As is my habit, I would like to make this a free form discussion to fit the needs and interests of those attending."
mday says, "But we should pause and let everyone identify themselves."
mday is Michael Day, Northern Illinois University
James <---- James Inman, Furman University
A lavender guest strolls into the street from the common ground.
MikeS is Michael Salvo, currently of Texas Tech and soon to be of Northestern University
MrFurious is Brendan Riley, a grad at University of Florida briley@nwe.ufl.edu
dano is danika brown from the university of arizona
James waves to the lavender guest
scog2 is Sharon Cogdill, St. Cloud State, teaching right now in another room in this moo
Tari is Tari Fanderclai, Akamai Technologies
Tari waves to the lavender guest.
Saffista is Samantha Blackmon, Wayne State, soon to be Purdue Univ.
traci is the queen of the empire
MikeS adds an A to make Northeastern
Sherry says, "Sherry is Sherry Mitchell from Washington State University"
Beckster is Becky Rickly, Texas Tech University
dano waves to the lavender guest
James grins at traci
Tari [to traci]: you are!
Douglas is Douglas Eyman of Kairos/CFCC
Bradley is Bradley Dilger, University of Florida.
Grigar (guest) [to emself]: Dene Grigar Texas Woman's U
Grigar (guest) says, "Dene Grigar, Texas Woman's U"
lavender guest changes eir name to kat (guest).
scog2 smiles at kat (guest).
mday says, "Glad to see such a great group assembled! First, do any of the presenters have questions or comments at the outset?"
James says, "just that i'm excited to see such a great group too!"
mday says, "And do any of the participants have questions or comments?"
Grigar (guest) looks around
Tari makes a note to ask traci for a tax break.
Beckster wishes Traci were here to calm her tempestuous children
dano waits to see where the discussion goes.
traci's omnipotence has not been fully recognized by the government
Bradley says, "Can I do my dissertation in mime?"
MikeS says, "i wonder how clearly defined mentor roles are, versus how well defined mentee roles are defined. anyone see the article in the chronicle about mentoring relationships? interesting, that"
Sherry [to Bradley]: Please don't mention the d word.
Bradley says, "Or, we could do Mike's question."
Beckster nods to Bradley. . . as long as we can mime your degree
Tari [to Bradley]: frankly, i think Mike has a better question
James does the universal symbols for P, H, and D
Grigar (guest) says, "Mike, what did the article say?"
Tari [to Bradley]: but you should certainly keep up your ambitions!
Bradley [to MikeS]: Got a URL for that article?
A Dutch guest strolls into the street from the common ground.
mday wants to know too, Mike. Tell us about the article?
Beckster [to MikeS]: can you give us a quick overview of the article?
Grigar (guest) nods at Mikie
MrFurious clicks his clogs in a salute to the dutch guest
dano waves at mrf
MrFurious waves to dano
Dutch guest changes eir name to slang (guest).
Slang (guest) waves to all
MikeS says, "basically, it offers a sense of mentoring. we seem to be mentor-crazy, with the umpteenth new text on mentoring"
Grigar (guest) hugs slang
James [to slang (guest)]: hiya
mday says, "Dene, I am intrigued with the concept of organicism in graduate education. But let's talk about Mike's question, then maybe Dene will tell us more about why and how she adopted that approach."
dano waves to slang
Beckster grins and welcomes slang
MikeS says, "the article was arguing that mentoring is rarely done well,"
Grigar (guest) nods
Grigar (guest) says, "I am interested in Mikie'"
dano nods
ChrisJ strolls into the street from the common ground.
ChrisJ waves
Grigar (guest) says, "in Mike's article too"
dano waves at chrisj
mday says, "howdies, Slang, and welcome! Would the people who came in after intros please introduce themselves?"
MikeS says, "and making an 'official' mentoring role kills any potential for good "
Beckster [to MikeS]: s I'm interested in how they defined "mentoring". I have a problem with some definitions, but I'm wondering how broadly we should cast this net
Grigar (guest) says, "so what is the suggest they he she makes for good mentoring preactice?"
Grigar (guest) taps her toes
James hopes Beckster will share those definitions, is interested
Slang (guest) says, "thanks Mike ! For the record, slang, ak.a. susan Lang, Texas Tech uUnicv"
traci says, "the problem with cccc's project mentor was the definition of who could be mentored, but that was an economic decision i guess"
Grigar (guest) grins at slang
MikeS says, "basically, we are dealing with something that, when done well, cannot be reproduced. and yet, somehow, we seek to do it, and seek to mentor WELL, and that codifying kills it. but then how many times have we heard that about good writing"
MikeS deconstructs himself
dano says, "and i'm interested in how the notion of mentoring might be tied to rich rice's notion of the "guru"... and how labor issues might impact all those roles played."
Bradley says, "heh"
mday says, "Mentoring does not work too well when the evaluation process causes those involved to focus more on the power relationships than just helping each other teach."
Bradley says, "codes under erasure?"
scog2 [to MikeS]: yes, i'm pretty suspicious of the idea that it can't be planned or codified
Beckster notes that a recent WPA survey found that women tended to spend more time in the mentoring role than did men--and, as a result, published less. If that mentoring role was divvied out, would that help these folks?
MikeS nods, but wonders what it is that makes a good mentoring relationship
traci [to Beckster]: there's a shock
Grigar (guest) says, ""I like Cindy's suggestion at the 7C's about group mentoring a[A[A[A[A[C[B[B[Ba la SIGs"
Grigar (guest) says, "a la Sigs"
Grigar (guest) laughs
Beckster worried about the "apprentice/master" model of mentoring. Very institutional, but is it valuable? When does it cease to be?
mday says, "Well, it sure can be planned, and probably should be."
Bradley [to MikeS]: Can a chair or a person like a WPA be a good mentor? Or does the position of power mess it up?
scog2 says, "there's also a fair amount of literature about the advisor/gradstudent relationship, that suggests that bad ones can be really really bad"
mday says, "Becky, doesn't that dovetail pretty well with your position statement for Town Hall One?"
James nods to Beckster
Bradley says, "actually, that's an open ?"
scog2 says, "mentoring might be able to diminish the effects of that?"
Grigar (guest) says, "Gertrude sStein never mentored a sole and was considered a genius and had time to be. . ."
scog2 isn't sure how much mentoring can do beyond sort of basic socializing?
scog2 says, "unless there's collaboration or a job in it?"
[ 8:16 pm ]
Grigar (guest) says, "other women of her period spent an awful lot of time mentoring and got little done"
Beckster [to Bradley]: good question. I think the power aspect *can* "mess it up". But I think it can also enhance it, too. But we need to tread w/ caution
mday says, "hmm, wouldn't it be better conceiving it as a partnership in better teaching and scholarship?"
scog2 says, "the step from grad studetn to faculty strkes me as more difficult and more susceptible to mentoring?"
dano is surprised at how grigar seems to be defining accomplishment there.
Grigar (guest) says, "But that is where it gets sticky, Scog. . ."
ChrisJ says, "umm...everyone's aware of the graduate/adjunct/mentor C&W sig, right?"
James had/has a really good mentee experience, thinks it can do a lot of good
mday says, "is that the day long thing, Chris?"
MikeS [to scog2]: i don't know - i've had the very best mentors at tech. and i think the important quality that my mentors shared was the willingness and self control to -let me be-, and to offer advice when i asked, but ultimately, i valued input because i began to recognize when i needed help ...
Grigar (guest) says, ""some depts frown upon partnering between faculty and students. . .they see it as faculty using students:("
ChrisJ [to mday]: no it was an afternoon thing
scog2 nods to Grigar (guest).
traci says, "need for mentoring might have less to do with academic structures and more to do with the mentee's ability to (1) observe and analyze the system, and (2) be outgoing and sociable"
MikeS . o O ( cwta )
Beckster [to scog2]: I think mentoring can be vital, in providing an outlet for imitatio, for support and advice, for feedback, for a "safe" place to exchange ideas
Saffista [to scog2]: I think that socializing is a big part of mentoring it does away with some of the power dynamic
Grigar (guest) says, "how do grad studnts feel about their metnroing experience?????"
scog2 nods to Saffista.
Saffista also had a good mentee experience
Beckster [to ChrisJ]: I didn't get to go--I'd love to hear how it went.
Grigar (guest) says, "eelaborate?"
MikeS thinks that if you can't get over power differentials real quick, it ain't gonna work
Grigar (guest) nods at MikeS
dano apologizes but must excuse herself.. may check back in a bit..
James hmms, and here's another question: When does mentoring stop? Does/should it stop at graduation?
Kat (guest) heads for the common ground.
scog2 would like to hear ChrisJ describe it, too
ChrisJ [to Beckster]: there weren't too many of us (10 or so), but it went well
mday requested a mentor when I got here as a new faculty member. I need the advice of someone who knows the system at this school, and can help me steer a good course.
ChrisJ says, "we had Kiwi and joel english there"
dano heads for the common ground.
ChrisJ says, "and janet cross"
scog2 would like to hear what people would like a mentor to do, i mean if it were personal and right now, what would you ask for?
ChrisJ says, "in the mentor roles"
Grigar (guest) says, "no, it may go on for a long time after. . .it is up to the people involved?"
scog2 thinks really collaboration?
scog2 nods to mday.
MikeS [to James]: perhaps the moment real mentoring starts is when both sides realize that mentoring is not a one-way relationship. all parties are changed.
mday [to James]: I don't think it has to stop, but both have to be willing to continue.
James agrees with Grigar
Douglas [to James]: and when is mentoring needed? I feel a bit peripheral to this because I never had an on-campus mentor, so it's interesting to hear what people who have had one think about it.
Grigar (guest) says, "mentors help students get jobs, get through the first year, the first book, tenure. . ."
Slang (guest) says, "a:agrees with "faculty memntoring faculty was sometihing I was involevved in At southern illinois--occasionally wordked, usually didn't , though."
Grigar (guest) says, "it is ongoing it we want it to be"
scog2 [to Douglas]: what would have helped you had you had help?
mday agrees with Grigar
scog2 nods to slang (guest).
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: what worked? And what didn't?
scog2 [to slang (guest)]: wht went wrong?
Saffista says, "It should be an ongoing thing when we move from grad students to faculty we need more advise than ever befor :>"
Grigar (guest) says, "there are 2 diss comms I am not on but I am offically mentoring the students"
Grigar (guest) says, "sometimes it is easier"
MikeS nods nods nods to saffista
Slang (guest) says, "sorr"having faculty from different disciplines as mentors was helpful re the univ politics--not so helpful for professional development."
Saffista says, "advice even"
James goes back to Beckster's interest in definitions: sees mentoring as a mutual professional interest in each other's work, doesn't see it connected so much to the market or to classes or anything, thinks those scenes foreground power issues a lot
MikeS nods to james
ChrisJ nods at James.
Beckster notes TTU has a new mentoring program in place. It tries to do it all, so it often doesn't "work," yet I value it for what it CAN do for me as I need advice, want to learn quickly about some local issues/politics, etc. It IS a "safe" place to talk and ask questions, which is enough by itself.
Bradley [to James]: Get coffee, talk about what's going on now, support, feedback
Douglas [to scog2]: I'm not sure. I figured out the politics of my program on my own, and all my work has been self-motivated (although I consider some of you my mentors, just in a particular place). And maybe that brings us to looking at the specific contexts of the mentoring relationship and how that affects the power dynamics.
mday likes the model for mentoring Beckster proposes in her position statement. Can men try to be that way too?
scog2 nods to Douglas.
James nods to Bradley----exactly
Grigar (guest) says, "it is a mutual interest in areas, sometimes not definable or focused on academic pursuits"
Beckster nods to James, but there's always some kind of power differential in play (almost)
Bradley says, "there are people at Florida I could never do that with"
Sherry nods at Grigar
Tari thinks it also involves a personal interest.
scog2 says, "you know, i notice that as grad students move into faculty, they seem to lose their readers, ppl who'll read their stuff, take the time with it"
Grigar (guest) says, "Tari, what is mentoring in your compnay???"
James says, "it's feasible now too that grad students in a program may have more power in a field than program faculty"
Beckster says, "TTU's program is for new faculty, btw. We also have mentoring on several levels fro new TAs"
MikeS [to Grigar (guest)]: good question
James nods to Becky
Tari [to Grigar (guest)]: well, it's not really anything formal
James says, "err, Beckster"
Douglas nods James
James [to himself]: you're in a moo
Grigar (guest) says, "like ours"[31~:)"
Grigar (guest) says, "are you being mentored now, Tair???"
Grigar (guest) says, "Tari"
scog2 [to James]: maybe the computers make the grad students in our field more powerful, but in some of the more traditional fields, it's still... pretty much like big housea and field .. workers
Bradley thinks.
Grigar (guest) laughs at her clumsy fingers
mday [to scog2]: I have found that to be the case. I have lost readers for my work.
Beckster smiles
Tari [to Grigar (guest)]: i suspect there is some mentoring going on, but it's more like a group gets a new member and various less new members converge to help them get started.
scog2 nods to mday.
ChrisJ nods to James and scog. Realizes his interest in tech gives him an edge over some faculty (in their eyes)
Grigar (guest) like ours:)
Grigar (guest) laughs
Slang (guest) agrees with mday
Tari says, "i'm at a brand new company though, don't forget."
mday says, "Does technology change mentoring relationships? Can it?"
MikeS [to scog2]: hmm, is that what mentoring is? losing readers is different from losing mentors. in a way, i feel like the -mentoring- relationship with some of my comm't members is just now starting now that i've defended
Beckster [to Tari]: so it's informal. Is that the way it was for most of you as TAs?
Grigar (guest) says, "then you are being mentored?"
Sherry [to ChrisJ]: Do you ever notice faculty feeling resentful about your expertise in tech?
Tari [to Grigar (guest)]: well, i'm not
Tari says, "but i have kind of a unique position"
scog2 [to MikeS]: what's happening now that wasn't happening before?
Grigar (guest) says, "that is too bad, it is hard being new anywhere"
mday says, "although Slang WAS my reader for one of my recent pieces, so book and journal eds often fill that role."
Tari says, "i'm the only person in the whole department whose job is like mine."
scog2 nods to mday.
Tari says, "and as i said, it's all new to everyone."
Beckster notes that Slang is an excellent reader, too
Slang (guest) says, "yes, michael, I think what we lose are the informal readers--but they aren't what I'd conflate with mentors or mentoring."
mday agrees with Beckster
Tari [to Grigar (guest)]: not that i have any experience with any company really mentoring people
MikeS [to scog2]: like projects/papers/etc -- opportunities to consider, startegic planning. before it was always finish, finish, finish, write, write, write. now i have a sense of getting some direction and warnings about potential pitfalls.
James hmms, thinks technology enables mentoring relationships to expand and even to be fundamentally different, but thinks in an absence of computers, mentors and mentees would expand and change in other ways------the dynamism almost goes with the social aspect of the concept
Beckster nods...and I have actually gained readers--colleagues--that I didn't have before
[ 8:26 pm ]
MikeS . o O ( strategic )
Douglas [to mday]: and it's certainly possible to use technology to gather new informal readers, although that may or may not equate to mentoring.
James [to MikeS]: was finish, finish, finish useful at all, or frustrating?
Eric strolls into the street from the common ground.
mday thinks computer and net technology just help us mentor at a distance if we need to. Are we performing a kind of mentoring in our list discussions?
James waves to Eric
Tari says, "i think i'm more familiar with "organic" mentoring relationships"
Beckster nods to James. Thinks that tech has extended the support. But is it still "mentoring"? I'm not sure anymore
Slang (guest) waves to eric
Grigar (guest) smiles at Eric
Tari says, "e.g., I'd consider SCog a mentor. And James."
mday nods Douglas, yes, I like having informal readers for half baked ideas I can bring up on lists.
mday howdies Eric!
traci wonders if the goal should be supportive communities rather than here-a-mentor, there-a-mentor
MikeS [to James]: i exaggerate, but i certainly have a feeling that everyone now is encouraging me to be more agressive about opportunities that, a month ago, they would have warned me away from.
Bradley [to Tari]: Me too!
James nods to Beckster-----yeah, and it gets so murky, as people use the term in more and more ways----tough to say
Tari says, "people who support my work and keep me out of trouble."
MikeS [to Tari]: she's a good one
Douglas [to Beckster]: I feel as if tech has facilitated mentoring for me--otherwise I would have none. MBU was like a big mentor-a-thon.
Eric waves
mday . o O ( Experi mentor? )
scog2 considers mday and tari to be mentors
Tari says, "hi eric"
scog2 hesitates to leave anybody out
MikeS grins
Grigar (guest) says, "my /dean is my mentor"
MrFurious [to traci]: the grads in the Computers and Writing Working Group at U Fl are working toward just that sort of environment.
traci wishes she had her OED too. Anyone know anything about the etymology of 'mentor'
Beckster nods to Traci. I think, perhaps, we use the term "mentor" too loosely sometimes. Though I still like the verb....I feel "mentored" at times through list participation, informal hallway chatter, etc.
James thinks Tari's statement is an example of the mutual aspect of mentoring, sees Tari very much as someone who mentors him too
Grigar (guest) says, ""Scog you would appreciate that"
Grigar (guest) smiles again
mday agrees about MBU and now ACW. It's a support system for me.
Douglas nods to Beckster
scog2 does!
Grigar (guest) says, "isn't there a diffrence between support system and mentor? I wonder"
Tari [to James]: i think that's sort of it; your mentor can't really just be someone who tells you what to do--that's a manager.
Grigar (guest) scratches her head
mday reaches and finds only the Japanese-American dictionary. Sigh
scog2 [to Grigar (guest)]: i spend a *lot* of time with new faculty here, working through the beaurocratic stuff, and the politics
James nods to Tari
MrFurious [to Grigar (guest)]: mentor sort of implies 1 - 1 relationship, I see support system as a group
Grigar (guest) nods at McFurious
Tari [to James]: it's someone you can turn around and mentor, too. Or something.
Douglas [to Grigar (guest)]: maybe the support system is more informal--and because of the context it isn't wrapped up on the power dynamics one has to beware of in mentoring relationships.
Bradley [to MrFurious]: But we do mentoring sorta stuff, I guess.
traci says, "i'm just wondering if mentoring isn't a patriarchal, hierarchical construct"
scog2 sees a mentor as somebody being just one step down the same path for just this part of the journey
scog2 gets all sentimental
MikeS nods to grigar, "ACW helped me find a mentor, and a PhD program, and has certainly edified me (with examples of both DOs and DON'Ts, but i don't feel mentored by ACW
traci says, "and the fact that the word begins "MEN" is making me wonder more"
James nods to Douglas-----yeah, mentoring feels alive, dynamic, where having a support system feels more like a resource that can be tapped
Grigar (guest) says, "it gave me the language I needed"
MrFurious [to Bradley]: right
Tari says, "but i'm also with scog in that i DON'T think it's not possible to create a mentoring relationship rather than waiting for one to kind of happen"
Slang (guest) says, "questions, er question--did anyone define the term mentoring before I arrived? If not, I'd be curious about what we all think it really is...."
Grigar (guest) says, "and told me what the stakes were"
scog2 says, "my best mentor ever was my diss director, and it was my writing he mentored me on. The other stuff was being a good advisor, but he was a poet and a great reader, always went further than he had to, always gave me some of himself when he read my stuff"
Eric [to traci]: I dunno. mentoring the way I think of it seems more nurturing. of course, maybe I just haven't had any patriachical mentors
MrFurious [to Bradley]: but we are also trying to cultivate group mentoring stuff, right?
MikeS goes to his digital american heritage dictionary
scog2 does a paeon to benny
mday says, "Maybe a good question would be about how we can improve opportunities for mentoring-type partnerships? Or even list some of the exising ones for the people here and those who will read the log?"
scog2 . o O ( paeon? )
Douglas [to Tari]: you mean seeking out a mentor? Seems reasonable to me.
Tari nods to Douglas.
Tari says, "hm"
James [to slang (guest)]: beckster raised the issue of defns, and mikes was talking about a chronicle article, but we haven't really nailed down a defn for our discussion
traci says, "my dictionary only says it's from a character in something else"
MikeS says, "mentor (mntr, -tr) n. 1. A wise and trusted counselor or teacher. 2. Mentor. Greek Mythology. Odysseus's trusted counselor, under whose disguise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus. --mentor v. mentored, mentoring, mentors. Informal. --intr. 1. To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher, especially in occupational settings. --tr. To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher to (another person)."
traci says, "that i've not rememberd"
Grigar (guest) says, "It is hard to institutionalize it and make it formal since it is an intensely personal experience, I think"
MrFurious goest to grab OED
Slang (guest) nods to James
Bradley [to James]: See, that difference is a good thing, for me. I don't want any of that power crap. I'd prefer the collective to the 1-1 anyday.
Tari [to Douglas]: yeah, what if you thought of it like that--rather than focusing on 'here's a group of mentors and we'll assign you each to one' you taught people in need of a mentor how to seek them out.
Sherry says, "I tend to think of mentors as people who know their way around, who share what they know and make a point of actually listening to me, even if I'm just complaining. My diss director does that."
Grigar (guest) pricks up her ears when she hears Greek stuff
Grigar (guest) says, "Mentor was Athena"
traci says, "paper american heritage says "a character in Fenelon's Telemaque (1699)""
ChrisJ nods to bradley, wonders if the 1-1 isn't necessary though too.
Tari was going to say 'mentees' and then couldn't separate the word from 'manatee' which is sort of ominous
Grigar (guest) dreams about teaching the Odyssey again
MikeS [to Tari]: yes, the wise student chooses eir own mentor
Bradley [to Tari]: And eats a lot of lettuce
mday notes that we have the Interversitarian here in Eric. We could look at mentoring in the way Illich saw education as distinct from institutions, situated in a meaningful context, and based on reciprocal exchange. What do mentees give back to mentors?
Grigar (guest) says, "Feenlon's roipped off Homer!"
Grigar (guest) stomps her feet
Tari nods solemnly to Bradley.
Bradley [to ChrisJ]: Say more. Why is 1-1 necessary?
Tari says, "in some ways those faculty mentoring programs don't really get it."
James is interested in Bradley's response to the idea of mentoring-----what situation would be best for you in terms of the group approach?
Douglas nods to Tari. In a way, I think that many of us in C&W have done that (or had to do it, because local mentors just weren't around). Sometimes it involves a certain amount of luck though, like when I roomed with mday at my first 4Cs
Eric [to mday]: that's what I guess I think of. I've never had an institutional mentor. I've had advisors, but they didn't turn out to be mentors. I've had mentors, but they didn't turn out to be in institutionally hierarchical positions above me
scog2 says, "here's something i get from young (?) faculty and grad students: new knowledge, a connection with somebody real and happening"
scog2 says, "some thingS"
MrFurious says, "OED: Name of the guide of Telemachus; allusively, one who fulfils a similar office."
Tari says, "because they turn out to be yeah, what eric said"
MrFurious . o O ( not too helpful )
MikeS [to mday]: mentees offer ... scog beat me to it
ChrisJ [to Bradley]: seems like the relationship is different; different audience different exchanges.
mday says, "That was a cool time, Douglas!"
traci remains skeptical
scog2 learns what to read from them and not, i promise, from my colleagues
Grigar (guest) says, "Traci, if mentors tell students what to do in a controlled hierarchically way, it isn't mentoring"
Tari says, "you need a faculty advisor, but you need mentors out of different pools, and it's way harder to assign somoene a mentor than an advisor because you know what advising a student needs but you don't know what kind of mentoring"
Grigar (guest) says, "it is controlling"
Tari says, "i win the horrid sentence of the session award, but that's kind of what i mean."
scog2 still thinks a good reader of her writing is mentoring
Douglas [to mday]: yes it was. You were my mentor there, definitely. And it was more of a 1-1 system that branched out as I met more people. Then did it end when I went back to UNC-horrible? Or did it stop being mentoring when it became purely virtual/online?
scog2 says, "maybe i'm being too inspecific"
James agrees with Tari
Beckster says, "Athena is also seen as a mentor, but somehow the power relationship is problematic--coming from of her odd birth (springing from Zeus' head)"
MrFurious [to Tari]: I agree - it's almost as if one should choose a mentor based on, as someone said earlier, common interests. Assigning won't solve that.
scog2 says, "all intellect and no childhood"
Bradley says, "Is a faculty advisor a mentor?"
scog2 sees the problem
scog2 [to Bradley]: mine way
scog2 says, "was"
Grigar (guest) says, "well, she usurped his wisdo=m didn't she, being Metis' daughter and all?"
mday doesn't think it has to stop, but it goes through cycles and circles. Dare I say that it's an organic process, Dene?
Tari [to Bradley]: it might turn out that way, but in general i don't think that's to be expected
[ 8:36 pm ]
Grigar (guest) says, "remember, Zeus only gained wisdom by eating Athena's mother, Wisdon (Metis)"
Bradley tends to think, no, echoes Eric's comment.
Grigar (guest) nods
ChrisJ [to Bradley]: I don't think mine is turning out that way.
Grigar (guest) says, "Organicism"
Douglas [to Grigar (guest)]: so bad mentoring could lead to cannabilism?
Beckster [to MrFurious]: but my concern is that if mentors are chosen because of common interest, that may place a huge burden on a very small group of people. I'm becoming more and more aware of how important time demands are in this profession. How much should we devote to mentoring?
Grigar (guest) says, "I see it differently than Whitehead"
James says, "so programmatically, more and earlier interaction is good----sharing of interests, exchanging of ideas-----so people can get a sense of each other, right? prospective mentors/mentees"
traci [to Douglas]: there's a cccc2001 paper topic
MikeS says, "mentors can't be 'official,' nor can they be assigned. and one must seek out their mentor (i feel like i'm writing bad fortune-cookie filler)"
Beckster giggles at Douglas
Bradley smiles at ChrisJ. "Mine neither, in a good way."
mday says, "So what advice would you give to new grad students who don't see opportunities for mentoring partnerships?"
Bradley laughs at MikeS
scog2 nods to Beckster.
Slang (guest) grins at MikeS
ChrisJ nods to Beckster, wonders what he'll feel like in 5 years.
scog2 [to Beckster]: that is really a problem, i think
mday [to MikeS]: well said, glasshoppel!
MrFurious [to Beckster]: mentoring is also chosen from the mentor's side. If one doesn't have time, she/he should say so...
Douglas [to Beckster]: but if it really is a 2-way street, then it would be a wise investment of time for both parties.
Beckster [to MikeS]: while I believe you and your fortune cookie in my heart, my head is learning to be a bit more pragmatic. Can there be a compromise?
Tari says, "so i think we've defined the problem...or A problem: you can't really assign a mentor, but if you don't assign, say, a grad student a mentor, then you have to really convince them they need one and teach them to acquire one."
Bradley [to mday]: Hrm
MrFurious [to Beckster]: this also leads us to questions such as: what do we make of a prof who has no students that share his/her interests?
Douglas nods Tari
ChrisJ [to mday]: I'd say find a mentor who gives you opportunities. Look broadly across the field, perhaps.
scog2 says, "or a prof who won't take anybody on?"
traci [to MrFurious]: they're asked to teach fyc
scog2 says, "or a prof who takes anybody on?"
mday says, "So Dene, how does Whitehead see organicism? What's the difference in your approach?"
Grigar (guest) says, "I don't work wtih everyone, Scog"
scog2 says, "or a prof who does it for the glory? or to rip off their work?"
scog2 says, "these are the problems i've seen"
Grigar (guest) says, "He sees us as outside nature and I see as part"
Tari says, "another artificial thing about a codified mentoring system is that it creates the notion that everyone needs just one."
Douglas [to scog2]: and those are the ones the mentees need to be able to critically evaluate as possibly not being their best opportunities as mentors.
Sherry says, "Are we considering other grad students as potential mentors?"
Grigar (guest) says, "See us aspart"
MikeS [to Douglas]: yes! i think, too, that the power differential is 'naturalized' in a good mentoring relationship - mentee accepts advice/wisdom because they -accept- the importance of what is offered, whether the advice is taken or not. the bigger problems happen when advice is offered when not wanted, or worse yet, not offered but enforced as iff it were 'truth' or wisdom, without consideration of the position of the mentee
scog2 says, "i've also seen mentors use private, darknight confessions to nail somebody in tenure reviews"
Beckster [to Douglas]: maybe. But maybe not. Again, I'm just wondering if some people don't spend more time in this immediately fulfilling role (as a mentor/mentee) than in more institutionally sanctioned pursuits
MikeS catches his breath
mday says, "Interesting, Tari, how would we teach one to acquire a mentor."
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: possibly--I think some of it depends on the individuals involved--perhaps oringinally assign, then people can sort out who their academic or developmental mentors might be.
mday agrees with your angle on organicism, Dene.
Grigar (guest) says, "once we move away from the real world then we blose agency"
Bradley thinks about Tari's last two comments.
MrFurious [to Grigar (guest)]: I am!
Grigar (guest) says, "lose connection "
Grigar (guest) says, "separated we are powerless"
Grigar (guest) says, "knowledge is ultimately unknowable"
mday likes the idea of assignments and projects being grounded in the real world.
Grigar (guest) says, "but I do not agree with that"
Eric says, "good question, mday. probably the same way you teach someone to seek enlightenment ;-)"
James likes one thing for sure about mentoring: it doesn't fit easily on a vita-----thinks that reflects the personal commitment it requires, alongside the professional
Bradley seeks enlightenment from the fridge.
Tari [to mday]: well, i dunno--i think a start is helping people figure out if/when they need them and what theyh want them for.
mday grins at Eric. Hears the sound of one hand clapping.
Beckster nods to slang. I think organic mentoring WILL happen. however, perhaps it would be good to "share the wealth" by assigning some mentors AT ALL LEVELS: student-student, staff-student, student-faculty
Douglas [to Beckster]: but if the actual work of the mentor and mentee lead to institutionally sanctioned pursuits? Maybe see mentoring as a project with an outcome?
Beckster nods to James.
scog2 nods to James.
MrFurious [to Tari]: I agree - getting to know how to work with others to generate ones own research seems to be a big part of grad life in general
mday [to Douglas]: what would be a possible outcome?
Tari says, "assigning them at least helps you sort of take care of the people who are, i dunno, shy about seeking them out"
Grigar (guest) says, "the nature of organism in mentoring implies that the relationship is dynamic"
Douglas puts Dene's comments in fortune cookies. That'll get 'em thinking!
MikeS thinks it is difficult to find mentors among people who are actively resisting your efforts, hence a limit to 'official' or assigned mentoring relationships
Grigar (guest) says, "relationships change and grow and die and reborn"
Tari says, "plus i think a mentor can sort of recognize when they can begin that kind of relationship with someone"
mday says, "yes, I like that. I am impressed with the acceptance, nay, the insistence on change, Dene."
Douglas [to mday]: a publication, a presentation, a something else altogether...?
scog2 wonders if some education in being a mentor would be one way to strengthen its value to the institution?
Grigar (guest) says, "god mikie, I am the queen of change"
MrFurious nods to scog2
Douglas [to Tari]: or end it.
James thinks, too, it's important not to force mentoring-----some people may not need them, some people may not want them, etc., and there are prolly implications for imposing the system, as Beckster and others have described via power
scog2 says, "like pitfalls and dangerous areas and rewards and examples"
Grigar (guest) says, "I have lived so many lives in just this one:)"
MikeS [to Grigar (guest)]: i image a lot of coins
Tari nods to Douglas.
Beckster [to Douglas]: that's another good possibility: make sure that, for both, something institutionally sanctioned results. But that doesn't happen that offen, and I wonder if, for instance, instead of encouraging co-authoring, for example, faculty shouldn't encourage grads to publish by themselves.
scog2 [to James]: and some ppl not good at doing it, either
mday says, "some of the faculty development groups do have workshops etc. on how to mentor."
Grigar (guest) says, "silver and gold, I hope"
Douglas nods James
scog2 nods to mday.
James nods to scog2
ChrisJ nods to Beckster
MikeS [to James]: and some may already -have- mentors, ppl outside the instittuion, or some other kinds of arrangments
Beckster grins at scog2...yep
mday says, "Yeah, making use of the many selves that we are in engagement with another, in the mentoring relationship."
James nods to MikeS
Tari [to Douglas]: well, I'm thiking about, like here on Connections--I try to *help* all the teachers, but then there are some that I just fall into a deeper exchange with--they teach me stuff about teaching and then i turn around and help them shape the MOO to what they need
Beckster nods to mikes
Grigar (guest) says, "maybe ther eis a paper in tthe notion of the multiple persona of mentoring"
Tari waves her hands around "it's kind of like, you know"
scog2 grins at Tari.
A striped guest strolls into the street from the common ground.
MrFurious [to mday]: good thing we're on selfe street!
Douglas nods to Beckster that's true.
Beckster [to Tari]: connection?
Beckster grins
Tari [to Beckster]: yes!
James nods to Tari------thinks, for the record, that if anyone wants to see strong mentoring, they ought to watch Tari interact with everyone interested in and on Connections
mday says, "james, I thought that your take on "disciplinary determinism" was right on. Would you suggest that we find mentors and partnerships outside rhet/comp?"
scog2 nods to James.
scog2 says, "students as well as faculty"
Douglas [to Tari]: yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.
The striped guest says, "Bill Condon here, late as usual. Sorry. I had a meeting until 5:00, and it lasted until 5:30. We West coasters have a problem with time."
ChrisJ nods at James.
mday cheers for Tari. You da MENTOR!
mday grins
Tari blushes.
MikeS waves to boll
mday says, "howdee, bill! Thanks for coming!"
James [to mday]: sure thing! mentors from all disciplines, mentees from all disciplines too
Grigar (guest) grins
Tari says, "Hi, Bill!"
MikeS waves to BILL
James waves to Bill
Beckster welcomes Bill, a mentor among mentors
MrFurious waves to bill
Slang (guest) [to mday]: I think having mentors outside the discipline/area/field is essential!
Sherry [to the striped guest]: guest Hi Bill!
Beckster nods to slang
Grigar (guest) waves at Bill
mday nods, Bill, a fine mentor!
Beckster says, "even outside your immediate institutional confines helps"
[ 8:46 pm ]
Tari [to the striped guest]: you can enter @name Bill so we can see you better if you want
Grigar (guest) says, "actually it is better sometimes that waym, Beckster"
striped guest changes eir name to <Bill (guest).
James isn't mentoring per se, but is working with an american studies student right now, and that's been fascinating-----loves interdisciplinarity
Tari says, "dang, he's fast"
Tari giggles.
Beckster smiles at Dene and nods
mday says, "Can anyone give us examples of mentors they have had from other fields?"
<Bill (guest) waves to all the nice folks
Grigar (guest) says, "History"
Beckster [to James]: why did you say that you're NOT mentoring, but working with? Where does the line happen?
Grigar (guest) says, "have a wonderful woman helping me from History"
James says, "and also what field you're arguing you're from too . . ."
MikeS believes that mentors have patience and that mentors must often exercise patience.
Grigar (guest) says, "Scog helped me with some things and so I consider her a mentor:)"
MikeS says, "anyway, i have to log off. thanks for setting this up, folks!"
Tari waves to MikeS.
Grigar (guest) nudges Scog
mday [to Beckster]: yeah, and thats one way that those of us wired technorhetors have a leg up on others. We routinely mentor and are mentored outside our institutions. Is that threatening to our colleagues at home?
scog2 and a friend from computer science do mediation, conflict resolution, together. it's been very rich for me
Douglas waves to MikeS
ChrisJ waves to MikeS.
Bradley waves to Mike.
<Bill (guest) says, "School teaching. Jim Rowe, at the Pine School in Stuart, Florida, was a terrific mentor. Calm, reassuring, yet still able to challenge me to do my best. "
mday waves and thanks MikeS!
MikeS waves
Bradley [to mday]: Dr. Jack Sabin. Dean. Quantum theorist.
MikeS heads for the common ground.
James [to Beckster]: i'm part of a group support network is probably the best way to say it-----a 'mentor' is already working closely with the student, and their context is that it's a 1-to-1 thing, that everyone else dives in and joins the group, but there's more too in the 1-to-1
mday [to Bradley]: very cool!
Bradley says, "he wears red socks"
MrFurious laughs
Beckster grins
scog2 smiles at Bradley.
Tari says, "Mentors want to see you succeed because they like you"
James grins at Bradley
traci [to Bradley]: you have a fashion mentor?
Tari says, "boy that sounds sappy"
Tari says, "but"
mday says, "doulbly cool. Da bomb!"
scog2 says, "that personal connection is essential, isn't it?"
Grigar (guest) says, "or they see a piece of themsevles in us"
Tari says, "beckster asked what the difference is, and that occurred to me"
Bradley says, "and he can get anyone to compromise on anything"
Beckster [to Grigar (guest)]: so are mentors merely trying to reconstruct themselves?
Bradley is trying to learn that.
Grigar (guest) says, "no but they see and know the struggles we face"
scog2 nods to Grigar (guest).
Grigar (guest) says, "and they try to help us over the bombs"
mday [to Tari]: yeah, so mentoring can be like social capital, which you build out of respect for someone you like. Hoping you will be respected and liked too.
Bradley has this sick idea that being the dean could be cool.
James brings up the whole disciplinary determinism thing in his statement for a number of reasons, but a really interesting thing to do is just peek at the sorts of things going on at national conferences not typically associated with c&w: things like NCA, PCA, AERA, etc. wonderful, wonderful projects in these areas
<Bill (guest) says, "I think mentors are typically farther along than we are, but on the same path. They may see a bit of us in them, or they may just recognize us as someone who might do good things. And they're typically people who value being helpful."
ChrisJ nods at James.
Tari [to Bradley]: when you get that sick, let me know--i'll pick up a phd or something and come work for you
traci [to Bradley]: are you feeling ok?
scog2 grins at Bradley.
Sherry nods at Bill.
Beckster likes all the mentoring stuff, but still wants to to problematize it. Doesn't like it being one-sided; doesn't like the implied power differential; doesn't like the fact that it's not recognized institutionally if it's not an institutional construct; doesn't like that, as a valuable process, it becomes relagated to one or two individuals
Tari [to <Bill (guest)]: wow, part of that's a lot like something SCog said before you got here.
Tari says, "it was said twice"
Slang (guest) @
scog2 smiles.
Slang (guest) says, "brb"
Tari says, "now it goes into the official definition"
Bradley [to Beckster]: Whoa
Slang (guest) has disconnected.
The disconnected slang (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home.
mday says, "Slang had a good point in her position statement about mentors remembering that our grads will be looking for careers outside academia. How can faculty mentors better prepare to help them prepare for other careers?"
Sherry [to Beckster]: do you mean problems you see as a mentor or as a person being mentored?
mday says, "Oh shoot, she just disconnected!"
Grigar (guest) says, "have experience in thgs other than academie""
<Bill (guest) says, "She'll brb, though"
Beckster [to Bradley]: force? or THE force?
Tari [to Beckster]: oh, so like the problem is that if you mentor someone and you weren't assigned to do that then it doesn't count as part of your professional "credit"?
Bradley nods to Dene.
Grigar (guest) says, "it is good that folks like John and Tari work outside the field and move within it"
scog2 [to mday]: one way, i think, is not to project our desires on our students, but really to listen to what they want and love and hate and do naturally, left to their own devices
ChrisJ [to mday]: how 'bout recognizing writing in situations/acitivities outside of academic constructs
Grigar (guest) says, "those experience are valuable"
James wants to resist its being defined, in many respects, institutionally------imagines, for instance, statistics like each faculty member in a medium-sized department can mentor 3.5 students effectively in a single academic year------means, more or less, that institutional defn also opens up _other_ power relationships, like administrative control and qualification, etc
mday nods emphatically to scog
Bradley [to James]: Ugh
Tari eeps at James. "Yeah. ick."
Beckster [to Sherry]: both, but I'm seeing more problems from the mentoring aspect now, in terms of the time committment. Yes, it's valuable, and should be done, but what if it comes at the expense of, say, publication that will allow the mentor to remain in a position to...well, to mentor?
Beckster giggles at James' stats
Tari [to Beckster]: i wonder if mentors need to um um oh hell
Bradley [to James]: When you say stuff like that, I don't wanna be dean anymore.
MrFurious [to Beckster]: What do you get out of your 3.5 students?
James grins at Bradley
Tari says, "ask me why i pressed enter on that statement"
Tari says, "i have no idea"
MrFurious [to Beckster]: that sounded bad - why do you mentor?
mday eeks, I have seen the most helpful faculty not get T & P and we lose them. They were so good at helping that they did not publish...
Beckster smiles
James [to Tari]: why did you press enter on that statement?
James grins at Tari
Tari [to James]: i have no idea!
Sherry [to Beckster]: so are you suggesting that mentoring should be counted toward tenure?
scog2 [to Beckster]: i'm thinking this is where it's important that it be organic, so that the mentor gets something important out of it - a relationship, a friendship, something solid and emotional and real as well as some kind of "here let me help you" gratification
Beckster nods to mday. That's what she's been reading about, and what, in the biscuit's words, is troubling me
James nods to scog2
Grigar (guest) says, "it may already in indirect ways thorugh collaborating on articles and prsentaitons"
scog2 says, "also, actually, i'm being mentored by somebody right now who doesn't care what I want"
Bradley [to Sherry]: Maybe, but what good is a mentor not publishing or attending conferences?
Slang (guest) strolls into the street from the common ground.
Douglas [to mday]: perhaps we need to work on making mentoring as important as (or nearly so) as publishing--after all, the same goal is achieved; furthering the discourse and growth of the discipline.
Beckster [to Sherry]: in an ideal world. But how soon will that happen, unless it's institutionally sanctioned?
scog2 cannot turn down these gifts she doesn't want
Tari says, "maybe you can simply deal with people who are predisposed toward mentoring and help them figure out how to make it happen not at the expense of, say, publication."
<Bill (guest) says, "I feel as if I'm kind of on the cusp of mentoring. I've been mentored, and now I'm mentoring. I don't even like the idea that mentoring should count in my work load. I mean, there are some situations, institutionally, where it does--thesis director, for one. But for the most part, mentoring is fun. You get to see really good people do really good things. As time passes, you get to work with them as colleagues. If it counted as service or something, I think it'd cheapen the experience for both mentor and mentee."
scog2 says, "they come at me anyway"
traci says, "this is like the grown-up version of the "will this lecture be on the test? does this journal count toward my grade?" discussion"
[ 8:56 pm ]
James [to Grigar (guest)]: yeah------writing together is a good way to meet t&p requirements and mentor
Tari says, "like when you get a mentee you work on a project with them and both get a publication?"
mday [to Beckster]: well, the same question has bothered me for years, but it's when we do so much innovation with technology that we fail to fit the model for publishing and crash and burn.
Eric says, "yeah, they could publish about mentoring :-)"
scog2 nods to <Bill (guest).
Grigar (guest) says, "I need to make dinner and get somthings done for tomorrow. . ."
Bradley [to traci]: All T&P is like that, I'm thinking.
Grigar (guest) says, "I enjoyed it very much"
scog2 nods to James.
mday says, "thanks for coming Dene! "
James [to Grigar (guest)]: take care!
Tari and James are sharing a brain
Grigar (guest) says, "thank you for organizing this session!"
Grigar (guest) smiles
Bradley says that with NO experience in it.
mday waves to Dene
Sherry says, "oops, my dinner companion is here. gotta go. thanks everyone!"
scog2 waves to Grigar (guest).
Eric waves dene
Grigar (guest) says, "bye!"
James 's IQ just skyrocketed!
Slang (guest) waves to Dene
Tari says, "night dene and sherry"
James grins
Bradley waves and waves.
Grigar (guest) has disconnected.
traci [to Bradley]: hence the phd isn't the best way to go. there are better systems
mday says, "Thanks for coming sherry!"
mday says, "We also owe a big thanks to Anne Wysocki at Michigan Tech, who put
the Town Hall One web site together."
Eric says, "bye sherry"
Sherry waves goodbye.
The disconnected Grigar (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home.
MrFurious waves too late
ChrisJ waves to Sherry.
James waves to Sherry
Sherry has disconnected.
Bradley [to traci]: Not if you want to be the dean.
traci [to Bradley]: take a couple valium
Tari [to <Bill (guest)]: i absolutely agree with that but i think that the problem that beckster is pointing out is that then a few people take on all the mentoring and they don't move forward in their own work as fast as people who don't help anyone but themselves
scog2 [to Bradley]: i heard that duquesne just hired a business dean without a ph.d.
Eric [to Bradley]: you could be dean of interversity. we make up our own titles there. no degrees required
mday says, "So what other questions and burning issues do folks have on their minds?"
Tari says, "whereas if it were somehow cheapened I mean recognized, more people might do it, or at least those who do wouldn't be penalized"
Bradley [to scog2]: Business school, bleah. "Buy X at Y cost, sell it at Y+1 cost." What more is there?
Tari [to Beckster]: i'm putting words in your mouth; how do they taste?
scog2 [to Tari]: there are always ppl who will do things for how they look. i'm thinking they might not be good mentors
Beckster notes that slang said that if we DID include some of this info--professionalization, mentoring, whatever--in our curriculum, what would we be willing to give up? I think that's a tough one
mday is afraid of doing what Beckster is talking about this time around, when in my last incarnation I was playing around with technology too much. Now I am really getting involved with helping the grads here.
scog2 says, "this argument isn't comfortable for me, since i really am not sure how much altuism we should trot out as professionally the thing to do"
scog2 says, "sort of positivist"
Beckster [to Bradley]: if you only knew...
Eric [to Beckster]: coerced publication? I'd give that up (oops, I already did)
Tari nods to scog2.
James [to Beckster]: and the prereq: what's there now in most programs?
<Bill (guest) nods to Tari
Tari [to scog2]: i'm uncomfortable with it and it's not even any of my business
Slang (guest) says, "I was thinking curricularly speaking....at least to start."
scog2 nods at Beckster and Slang's ideas.
scog2 grins at Tari.
James grins at Eric
Douglas must go; thanks everyone for an interesting discussion!
Beckster says, "and if we don't think that such a critter--professionaliation--is "disciplinary" and therefore shouldn't be included in our courses, where does it fit?"
James waves to Douglas
Tari says, "oh, i dunno...james and scog coerce a paper out of me now and then; it's not that bad--refreshes me on what i think"
Tari eyes herself warily.
mday thanks Douglas for coming!
Douglas has disconnected.
Bradley [to Beckster]: I think it can fit into courses fine, almost easily.
Beckster grins at Tari. If only it were that way more often for everyone
scog2 [to Beckster]: some people would say it is disciplinary, but it's not our discipline. it's some other.. where they study this stuff directly
Tari [to mday]: i'm thinking about outcomes
Bradley says, "I had a prof once who wrote part of the syllabus like a CFP; she made us do abstracts, etc."
Eric [to Tari]: yeah, collegial coercion is ok!
Tari [to mday]: of the town howl, i mean.
Beckster [to Bradley]: but is it a separate course? is it integrated? How much of the curriculum does it replace?
<Bill (guest) says, "Mentoring, imho, is basically an organic thing. Part of the reason I like to DO it is that I loved what happened when I was mentored myself. With enough work, anyone can publish, present papers, etc. Not everyone can mentor. If there's a way to value it without requiring it, fine. But if we start forcing mentoring, then I think that's a bad idea."
Eric says, "it's the institutional kind that sucks"
Tari [to mday]: is there some sort of, i dunno, action that you hope will come out of these discussions?
mday says, "Well, now that I'm part of a teacher training program, professionalism really is part of the curriculum. Working on it with teachers in training and grads is sanctioned here, and I think rewarded."
James wonders how people see grad school courses: core surveys? specialized knowledge?
Beckster smiles at Bradley. neat idea!
Sherry's friends arrive to cart her off to bed.
MrFurious [to Beckster]: It's discussed some in the incoming-grad teaching practicum
James took really no explicitly c&w courses in grad school
mday [to Tari]: well I asked a few questions about that earlier, and I am not sure we answered that.
Bradley hrms.
Beckster sighs. Hates to disagree--even in part--with Bill
Slang (guest) says, "actually, beckster, I don't mean professionalism--I mean the kind of knowledge about C&W that many of us got informally. I don't think a single seminar on C&W can deal with all the issues surrounding the field."
mday says, "I wanted to know what advice we could collaboratively brainstorm for new grads interested in being mentored..."
<Bill (guest) says, "But she does, eh?"
Tari isn't sure that Beckster and Bill are in disagreement.
mday says, "what resources we could refer them to..."
Beckster [to Eric]: I disagree--we have institutional mentoring here in a variety of ways, and while it's not always perfect, it DOESN'T all succk
James nods to Slang
scog2 nods to Beckster.
mday says, "and what new programs or resources we might cook up, like Interverstity."
scog2 says, "it doesn't all suck here, either"
scog2 says, "just some of it"
scog2 says, "and ppl are sort of trusting because of the name"
Tari says, "I don't know that Beckster wants to force people to mentor--it sounds to me like she wants those who do it to be valued as much as those who do other professional activities"
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: then it's kind of like professionalization into the fielf of C&W, no?
Eric [to Beckster]: I was just talking about institutionally coerced publishing. publish or your ass gets perished, that kind of thing, well, sucks
mday says, "hang on, big noise upstairs in this empty house..."
scog2 says, "you know, maybe the problem isn't the forced mentoring, or even the random assignment of mentors, it's the trust ppl come in with"
scog2 says, "sort of horrible to think of that as a problem"
Tari [to scog2]: well, it's true though
<Bill (guest) says, "What do you mean, scog?"
Beckster nods to tari. And I want to let people try mentoring at dif. levels. Our grad secretary mentors grad students--what's wrong with that?
scog2 [to <Bill (guest)]: i've seen mentoring that worked, even though it wasn't originally organic. it just worked between those people
Beckster [to scog2]: and the lack of trust in the institution. It seems to me that if you're invested in the field, and trust and respect your institution, you'll find mentoring in all sorts of places.
Tari says, "if you assign me a mentor i think 'who the heck is THAT and how do i know i can go to her and say whatever is on my mind and ask what i really need to know and get straight answers that don't leave the room?'"
scog2 [to <Bill (guest)]: but i've also seen and heard about cases where ppl said things to their mentors that hurt them later, or where mentors really disenabled people
Douglas's friends arrive to cart em off to bed.
scog2 was just thinking their guards weren't up
[ 9:07 pm ]
<Bill (guest) sees scog's point
scog2 [to Beckster]: i love that point!
Eric says, "I wonder if the best mentoring programs aren't main just events designed to get people together so they can sort themselves out?"
scog2 wonders what's up at mday's house, a cat?
scog2 nods to Eric.
Tari [to Eric]: i was thinking that, too, except that i never found a mentor at such an event
Eric says, "that's pretty much how MU's Institute for Instructional Technology worked. Of coruse, it worked so well that the university recently dismantled it :-("
mday says, "not sure, a cat or maybe a chair blown over on the deck. It is storming again."
scog2 says, "roland and i were thinking of starting breakfasts and just bringing ppl together from different disciplines who might like each other"
Beckster notes our ruckus is about watching "walking with dinosaurs" or "stuart little"
scog2 says, "see what happens"
James thinks it's important to see mentoring as evolutionary too: not just roles and here ya go, but initial interest and connection, increasing collaboration and conversation, mutually beneficial relationship-------we're talking about the end product quite a bit, which seems nearly impossible to specifically create or compel
traci says, "a large kitchen mentor has broken into mday's house and is 'helping' him rearrange the canned goods"
Tari says, "i mean, 12 step programs do the same thing--you're supposed to find a "sponsor" within the group"
Tari says, "and it's about as effective"
mday says, "Oh right. Just what I need. A kitchen mentor!"
mday grins
Bradley grins.
Tari says, "at least it isn't a manatee"
Tari says, "eating the lettuce"
James says, "hey, maybe it *is* stuart little!"
traci says, "the kitchen mentor is currently alphabetizing the tupperware"
Eric laughs
Beckster nods to James. Her diss director, a mentor, has a chapter in the ONline Writing CLassroom...
Bradley [to Tari]: Manatees like lettuce.
mday giggles
scog2 grins at traci.
<Bill (guest) says, "I wonder whether something is happening about hierarchy here. At Michigan, when all of us in ECB were equals, we mentored each other, had fun with it, etc. Now that I'm a Professor in a hierarchical structure--a department--I do have assigned mentoring roles. But the assignments are typically arranged between the mentor and mentee, so that we're agreeable with the relationship."
James nods to Beckster
Tari nods to bill
Beckster NODSNODSNODSNODS to Bill
Beckster says, "yea! We agree again!"
Eric says, "oops. I hear the local mentee crying out for some parental mentoring (which probably means 'change my diaper and feed me some cheerios')"
traci says, "a patriarchal hierarchical structure.....didn't i say that?"
Tari [to Eric]: i'll take some cheerios
Eric waves bye bye
Tari waves to Eric.
James waves to Eric
Beckster nods to traci
mday thanks Eric for coming!
mday says, "say hi to Lucy"
Eric tosses Tari some cheerios and away...
Eric heads for the common ground.
Bradley says, "CHEERIOS!"
Bradley says, "Grand idea."
Beckster grins....mother's little helper
scog2 [to <Bill (guest)]: i think in a clear hierarchy, one thing a good mentor does is keep her mouth shut and listen
<Bill (guest) reaches for the Cheerios
Bradley waves, heads for the pantry.
James waves to Bradley
Bradley heads for the common ground.
scog2 says, "it's more about not doing than doing"
Tari says, "great, Beckster, you just put the Sleater Kinney song back in my head."
ChrisJ says, "Gotta go too. Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion!"
traci says, "little does bradley know, the kitchen mentor has made its way to the pantry and is rearranging things"
Beckster grins
Tari played the same sleater kinney cd for 5 days straight
James [to ChrisJ]: see you!
Tari waves to ChrisJ.
mday [to scog2]: and what a great idea, and cool thing, listening. Isn't it? Something we all need to do more of.
ChrisJ waves
scog2 waves to ChrisJ.
ChrisJ heads for the common ground.
mday says, "Thansk for coming, Chris!"
scog2 nods to mday.
scog2 says, "best way to learn, with one's mouth shut"
MrFurious listens
scog2 tries not to move her lips, too
traci [to scog2]: what if you're learning about winetasting?
mday likes that not doing thing, from Zen.
James grins at traci
Tari [to traci]: wear a red shirt
MrFurious [to Tari]: Dirty shirt
scog2 closes her lips when sloshing the wine around but opens them before and after
mday [to traci]: picky picky, picky!
Kafkaz strolls into the street from the common ground.
James . o O (blowing a bubble with bubble gum)
MrFurious waves to Kafkaz
Beckster grins
James waves to Kafkaz
Kafkaz waves back
scog2 . o O ( pop )
Saffista waves to Kafkaz
mday howdees and hurrahs Kathy!
James grins at SCog and nods-----and sore cheeks!
scog2 waves to Kafkaz.
Kafkaz [to scog2]: careful, that'll get stuck in your hair!
scog2 thinks some more about being a mentee in a bad mentoring relationship
Kafkaz grins and waves at mday
James has a question for mday . . . .
Beckster says, "I think having a place where we all have the freedom to pursue the same goals: technology, outreach, the greater good of students, etc.--w/o having to publish (unless we wanted to, whcih we did) really helped us mentor each other at ECB, too"
scog2"s mentor needs her too much, somehow, needs affection and respect and and
scog2 . o O ( a follower )
James [to mday]: what surprised you about the range of statements/responses you received? were there things you expected to see, but didn't or don't?
<Bill (guest) agrees with Beckster
Kafkaz says, "but the learning goes both ways--soooo. . ."
James says, "for this town hall, i mean"
Beckster grins at scog. We do change, no? and so do our mentoring relationships
scog2 grins at Beckster.
mday would love not to have the publishing hanging over him
scog2 [to Beckster]: so that publishing thing feels to you right now like something competitive, affecting relationships with others, affecting what gets done and what can't
scog2 can see that
Beckster says, "So I'm wondering how we can recreate that atmosphere in tenure line/grad student situations? Or if we can't re-create it (you could, since you have tenure), what can we do so that everyone wins?"
mday [to James]: I was surprised that many of my questions were pretty much ignored, but happy that discussion went its own direction anyway!
Beckster NODSNODS to scog
Kafkaz [to mday]: well, that's the CC--but there are tradeoffs. . .Our mentoring is of grad students in their first non TA/TI positions, often.
James nods to mday
scog2 goes back to collaboration, which means the institutions needs to respect it
scog2 says, "working together on a paper is intimate and rewarding and helps the really inexperienced more i think than anything"
mday did not expect that mentoring would be our trope du jour, but it seemed to fit, and I learned a lot from the discussion.
Slang (guest) nods to michael and thinks there's still much to explore re grad student issues.
scog2 can hear slang's voice when she writes
James nods to Slang
Beckster [to Kafkaz]: and is it hard because of a larger teaching load? I found that exhausting, and difficult to keep up a mentoring relationship with any consistency...teaching 4/4 or more...
<Bill (guest) says, "If we had an ideal world, then the book-a-year-man (I'm thinking of a colleauge right now) who's not very personable could do his thing and the ones who'd rather mentor, and are as good at that as the BAYM is at publishing, could do their thing. And everyone would be valued according to her/his strengths."
[ 9:17 pm ]
Slang (guest) grins at scog2
mday thinks he said something about valuing electronic collaboration in his article in the next C & C
Beckster sighs and wants to live in Bill's world
scog2 goes back to the website to see about other issue
scog2 says, "s"
mday wants to live in THAT world, Bill!
Slang (guest) [to mday]: have you seen that issue of C&C yet? I haven't!
<Bill (guest) says, "Bill does too!"
traci says, "in an ideal world they would bring us chocolate just for existing"
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: well, it depends on the model--when I served as our liaison to the pt faculty, it was hard--one of me and maybe thirty new pt-ers at any one moment. Now, we have both a voluntary system, and an "assignment" for tech mentoring.
scog2 says, "yeah"
Beckster smiles. Bill, I thought you ruled the world!
mday says, "I have not. I called them and they said end of April. "
Saffista gives traci chocolate just for existing
<Bill (guest) REALLY wants to live in Traci's world
scog2 too
James nods to Bill, does too
Kafkaz says, "So, for tech, it might be only 2-3 mentees at a time, which is doable."
scog2 roots around in her desk for chocolate
traci sighs, "those hotels that leave chocolate on your pillow are as close as we can come."
mday says, "It will maybe be late since they have to send my payment to England for processing before I can get my renewal."
Beckster [to Kafkaz]: I think that's what we almost have to do. combine voluntary with institutional
Tari [to traci]: and those are pricey
scog2 says, "you know, here's a different issue"
mday loved them chocolates!
Beckster [to traci]: only if it's godiva or lindt
traci [to scog2]: yes.
Saffista . o O ( ummmm godiva )
scog2 says, "on my campus students are not put on the university general listserv"
scog2 says, "not even grad students"
scog2 says, "they all seem to want to be"
traci says, "we need to ask dene what chocolates we'll get on our pillows in DFW"
James thinks, too, that good mentors recruit prospective students------so, that's maybe an angle to create official credit or appreciation for mentoring
Tari says, "i need white chocolate"
Tari says, "real chocolate makes me sick"
Kafkaz loves white chocalate.
scog2 thinks the list right now is pretty toxic, describing as it does the community we have right now
mday says, "I dunno if students can be on our general listserv either. I should check. Would be interesting! Are you working on making that happen Scog?"
traci is pleased to see that tari realizes white chocolate isn't real chocolate
MrFurious samples from all the fruits of the chocolate platter
scog2 would rathr the grad students she works with see this, since they're so powerless
Saffista [to scog2]: they are purposely being kept out of the loop? How do they get that aspect of professionalization
Beckster eyes tari. *white*???? next thing you'll tell me that you don't like black coffee
scog2 not sure that's a good perspective
mday says, "It might feel like airing dirty laundry in front of the customers, huh?"
Tari [to Beckster]: coffee makes me sick
scog2 says, "not see the list, i mean"
Beckster keels over
scog2 [to mday]: it's toxic here right now, daily flame fest, fighting right now about religion. really.
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: yeah, now we volunteer, then the associate dean assigns matches, and she's both a good judge, and flexible enough to switch it all around if need be.
James can't drink coffee either
traci asks beckster to go fetch her some rocket fuel (long as we're discussing coffee and chocolate)
Saffista loves coffee
scog2 [to Saffista]: i'm not sure wht's going on on the list really is professionalism, it's the community we have right now
Beckster grins
mday should put a frozen dinner in the nuke. I am falling over from hunger put will stay with you.
mday says, "but"
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: big issue is getting folks to volunteer--bigger numbers among the tech users, so far.
Saffista [to scog2]: gets them used to the real world of university BS?
Beckster nods...those used to working with connections
Beckster says, "not just the moo, either"
scog2 [to Saffista]: i think it's less horrifying if you feel you can just delete it without caring
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: zactly--and used to having all the class work be public, and accessible.
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: doesn't fred keep a calendar of time he spends mentoring? I've done similar things--if we want credit for it, perhaps more of us need to kee those records?
Saffista [to scog2]: true
scog2 says, "i guess i'm worried about making them so cynical before they have any chance to develop their own presence in the intitution"
scog2 says, "well, grad student is a presence of course"
scog2 argues with herself
Saffista says, "so what about places that have courses that serve as mentoring sections?"
<Bill (guest) says, "One kind of assigned mentoring: Right now, I'm the faculty mentor for Michelle Kendrick and Barbara Monroe, and this fall I'll mentor Cindy Wambeam. My job will be to help them get tenure. All three of those are a breeze--great people who can get tenure standing on their heads. So that's not bad at all, and all three are opportunities anyone would jump at."
Saffista is already cynical
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: he may, but probably only for "formal" contexts (diss and thesis committees--which he's usually chair of, and gets some release time for)
Kafkaz [to scog2]: and grad student often is already world-wise enough to have some healthy cynicism going. . .
Kafkaz grins at Saffista
scog2 nods to Kafkaz.
Slang (guest) [to Saffista]: I had a course where my instructor became my mentor as an undergraduate, but no graduate courses
scog2 [to Kafkaz]: but this infighting right now is so awful, and i can just blow it off, it doesn't affect me, i'm not losing any respect for anybody, i'm the one here, really, who doesn't have anythng to lose. i'm afraid the grad students have too much to lose
Saffista [to slang (guest)]: I mean a course that actually focuses on mentoring. how effctive can that be?
scog2 says, "this might be infantizing, though"
Kafkaz says, "Sometimes, are mentors don't even know that's what they are."
<Bill (guest) says, "Another kind of assigned mentoring: This week, I've taken part in SIX grad oral exams--three MA orals, one final Doctoral, and two qualifying Doctoral orals. Those, too, are consensual and fun. I can help in those situations, and I learn a great deal from those students and from the conversations in the room."
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: I dunno--I always kept those as evidence of university service in my director's position--maybe we should be more stringent about doing the same thing at TTU
mday gnaws at the corners of a block of frozen spinach.
Kafkaz [to scog2]: yeah, caring makes life harder, nearly always so. . .
scog2 [to <Bill (guest)]: you've been busy!
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: that's how this wpa article showed that women wpas spent much more time meeting w/ folks, mentoring, etc.--time logs
scog2 nods to Beckster.
Kafkaz [to scog2]: but better, too, much better.
traci [to Saffista]: do you mean a course that's goal is to provide mentoring to the enrolled students/
Beckster says, "but they didn't get recognized. They just didn't get tenure"
Saffista [to traci]: yes
scog2 . o O ( infantilizing )
Kafkaz [to scog2]: ah, that would be the charge, hey? she babies them
<Bill (guest) says, "One kind of voluntary mentoring: I always have grad students in my seminars do papers that will be suitable for conference presentations, and I stick with them to see them into print, if the student wants to go for that. That's a blast, really, and not nearly as much work as writing articles myself!"
Kafkaz grrs
scog2 [to Kafkaz]: well, i guess i'm asking myself if i'm doing that
Beckster grins to Bill
<Bill (guest) says, "OK, I've posted three kinds, dividing them into assigned and voluntary. Who else wants a go?"
[ 9:27 pm ]
mday [to <Bill (guest)]: and great people, all three of them!
Kafkaz [to scog2]: well, i just worry that we accuse ourselves of that too readily. relationships are healthy, not pathological by nature.
scog2 smiles at Kafkaz.
scog2 says, "thanks"
scog2 [to <Bill (guest)]: these are good examples!
mday says, "I like your categories of mentoring, Bill, thanks!"
scog2 needs to forage for sustenance
scog2 hasn't eaten yet
Kafkaz [to <Bill (guest)]: I loved the profs who did that--only 3 that I recall. Special folks.
Beckster says, "the WPA all read student evaluations. We invite the best teachers to come in and ask them how they'd like to participate more fully in the program. The teachers who consistently have a problem, we invite to come in and work w/ us 1-1 to improve their teacher, by focusing on feedback, reflecting on teaching, and designign collaboratively some diff. ways to teach/diff assignments/diff assessment techniques"
scog2 asked for a log, so i'll read what you all say later!
James waves to scog2
scog2 waves byebye
Tari waves to scog2.
scog2 heads for the common ground.
<Bill (guest) waves to scog
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: eek! Do folks ever feel punished by that?
mday says, "earlier I mentioned the kinds of informal, spur of the moment mentoring I do on the net. Lots of students find my web sites and write with questions. I do keep a record of those interactions, some of which grow into mentoring relationships of varying lengths."
James should probably cruise too, thanks mday and everyone for a super discussion, plans to catch up via the log
James waves
mday says, "Not to say that I don't do the same with my students, grad and undergrad too, but that's assigned, pretty much."
James heads for the common ground.
MrFurious waves to james
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: I ask because we've had at least one bad situation I can think of where the teacher felt punished--singled out for poor evaluations.
mday says, "thansk for coming James!"
Beckster [to Kafkaz]: yes, they probably do--but we need to ensure that undergrads are getting a good experience, too. How do you do it?
mday mistem
mday [to Kafkaz]: oh, "bonehead" mentoring? That would be awful, like a remediation punishment.
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: good question. I think some sort of subtly might be key. Focus on sharing best practices, invite *all* and vary the presenters.
Beckster says, "I'm asking that my grad class all submit a C's proposal. We're going to spend a week working on them collectively"
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: and do our best to find at least one "best practice" to reinforce in nearly everyone.
Kafkaz [to mday]: right, exactly.
Beckster [to Kafkaz]: we do that. We have workshops, even *required* ones.
Tari [to Beckster]: THAT'S so cool
Tari [to Beckster]: i'd have KILLED for that kind of help
traci says, "course it won't get them travel money"
<Bill (guest) says, "I like Kafkaz's idea. Put best practice on display, invite all, and maybe POINTEDLY invite some. No one needs to know who got the special invitations."
traci says, " which is the ultimate problem"
Kafkaz nods to Beckster--that's great.
Kafkaz nods to Bill--that's the idea, I think.
Tari [to traci]: you know, there should be a way to do something about that.
traci says, "i'll get right on it"
Tari has this notion that we should have a fund or something
Beckster [to Kafkaz]: we have a "talk2us" session on TOPIC. We share "best practices" on that and other lists. But we still have had (not this year, but in the past) a few teachers who get almost all horrible evals.
traci says, "there are scholars for the dream awards"
traci says, "but you have to fit the award qualifications"
Tari [to traci]: i'm thinking there should be a way to fund some people who haven't won an award yet
Tari says, "i'd put my money in that fund"
Tari says, "seriously"
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: hey am I supposed to be in your class or somehow help you with the CCCCs stuff? I sorta remember you saying something to that effect...;-)
traci says, "those cccc dream things are like that."
Beckster says, "our invites are individual and private. And those who have come in for "intensive mentoring" have *all* either improved...uh, or dropped out"
Tari says, "because i remember what that was like--you needed to get some experience just going to conferences"
traci says, "they're for first time presenters, but in traditionally under-represented areas"
Tari says, "and you couldn't because if there was any funding it was for people who were presenting"
Kafkaz [to Beckster]: that is a problem, I know--and that's a toughie for the mentor. As liaison, I was often asked to observe and evaluate *only* the classes going poorly. But me in as bad a spot as the teacher. Very tough to wring good results out of that. Delicate, at best.
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: yeah, next Thurs I've invited you and Locke to review the C's proposals on TOPIC.
<Bill (guest) says, "I hate to go, but my two sons are threatening to do dire things to my office if I don't take them home for pizza NOW!!! So, 'bye all. This has been terrific!"
Beckster nods to kafkaz
Tari says, "thanks for coming, Bill!"
Beckster waves to bill and the boyz.
Saffista waves to Bill
Kafkaz waves to Bill
MrFurious waves to bill
Beckster says, "I bet Misha isn't tiny anymore"
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: can't do it thursday...told you that tuesday was only day available before I leave for atlanta
<Bill (guest) has disconnected.
The disconnected <Bill (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home.
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: you can't do it online during the weekend? You can do it when you get back, then
Tari [to traci]: couldn't they get a fund going and grad students could just write applications about why they wanted to go to a conference irrespective of presenting or not?
Tari says, "because it seems to me"
Beckster nods to tari...not a bad idea...
mday thanks you all now, before I miss somebody else who leaves while I am checking on my food.
traci says, "they could do purt near anything, someone with power just has to come up with it"
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: yeah, I'll get back Sunday night....what is the window you've given them for our feedback?
Tari says, "that if a professional organization made it important to get the new new newbies to conferences"
traci says, "i think those dream awards are only $500 anyway"
Tari says, "then schools might start realizing it was important, too."
Saffista [to Tari]: that would be a great idea I would have loved to have gone to a conference before presenting. It might have alleviated some of the sheer terror
traci says, "ncte is putting its newbie support in the 'free' first year membership this year"
Tari says, "hm"
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: the just need to be able to revise and submit by May 15. I'm doing it THurs. because they said they needed Tues. to brainstorm, and next Tues. is course wrap-up.
MrFurious says, "One of my fellow grads used to sign up for the pre-conference sessions, then, even if she didn't get to present, her name would be on the program. In our dept: name on the program = money"
traci says, "and leaning toward trying to setup more online support -- since so many newbies (and not) can't afford to travel to conferences"
Slang (guest) says, "Tari, I think that's a super idea--I'd love to see new people go....."
Beckster [to slang (guest)]: they're just posting them by Thurs. I'm sure they'll welcome any and all feedback after that!
traci says, "at most a conference MAY hit 5 to 7% of the membership"
Tari says, "what does it take to organize such a thing?"
Tari says, "you get the fund created somehow"
Tari waves her hands around
Kafkaz [to traci]: the online conference this year was an awesome way to get people involved, too--give 'em a taste.
[ 9:37 pm ]
Tari says, "and then you promote it to get donations"
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: why not have visitors come in to help with brainstorming--that's what we did at SIUC and it did help quite a bit
Tari says, "and then you have to collect applications and figure out how to choose among them"
Tari says, "and then"
Tari waves her hands around
traci says, "there's actually supposed to be come place on the renewal form wher eyou can indicat e that you're giving extra money for ncte's philanthropic endeavors"
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: one case where early intervention helped. i helped out with five or six proposals in multiple drafts that year....
Tari [to traci]: yeah, but i want to donate to a specific one
Beckster says, "many of them are using the C's plotting and scheming, and we're brainstorming in class...but I'm sure that would help, too."
traci says, "then the NCTE Fund folks decide how to spend that money. they'd be the ones to approach"
traci says, "i can't do anything because i work for ncte"
MrFurious says, "With regard to group mentoring - a bunch of the grads here are doing pre C's proposal workshops in the next few weeks"
traci says, "i'm barely allowed to present"
Tari has been trying to sell this idea to someone ever since she got out of academia and into a place where people will pay for your conferences
Beckster says, "since these are only 200-500 words (I forget which), I think BSing is good, but feedback is important, too"
Tari nods to traci.
Beckster wonders if we couldn't use the engrad list for C"s brainstorming
Beckster says, "or the talk-2-us"
traci [to Beckster]: they have 500 words
Beckster grins...thanks
Saffista [to traci]: with the Teach2000 program if people sign up now will they get membership for the 2000-2001 academic year or for the 1999-2000 AY?
Tari says, "so, opinions...are we still having the town hall or have we moved into the after-chat part?"
traci says, "you get a one-year membership"
Kafkaz . o O ( discount for profs who bring a student? A way to redistribute money? Easier to get *matching fund* donations, maybe. )
Tari never knows when to shut off the recorder.
Kafkaz thinks it's over
Beckster thinks we are way into after chat
Slang (guest) [to Beckster]: but they need to be carefully chosen words--and they should see samples of proposals that got in and those that were rejected.
mday agrees.