Conference on Argumentation Concepts

Present: Angie Satterfield (Angie), Pat Ballard (Pat), Jeff Chandler--briefly (jeff), Xiao Wang (Woddy and Xiao), Jeff White (jcwhite), Dr. Newbold (No1)

Transaction Key

ONE-WAY Transactions

TWO-WAY Transactions

MULTI-PARTY Transactions

Elisions indicated by * * *

*jcwhite* Well...hmmm, Pat...how's work going?

*No1* Hello Angie from the wet south.

*Pat* this is jeff I'll be pat for a moment

*Angie* Hello, sorry I'm a bit late, I hit a deer last night and had to do the insurence thing.

*No1* What else can happen!!!

*jcwhite* Did the deer have insurance?

*Angie* I'm afraid to ask.

*jcwhite* They so seldom do.

*No1* I'd better not ask, or something else might happen....X (crossed fingers)

*Angie* nope, but it did make a nice hood ornament.

*jeff* Type here and hit 'Enter' key to send.

*No1* More importantly, does the deer have a lawyer.

*Angie* it needs a pine box now

*jcwhite* ugg.

*Angie* sorry

*Angie* guess you don't hunt either

*No1* Angie, did it jump out at a "deer crossing" sign?

*Angie* nope just about a half mile before one

*Angie* no respect for the rules.

*jeff* hey

*jeff* it's working

*Pat* no1 I've got my 7 yr. old with me long away from home. I have had a system crash on my home PC and didn't get it back until this evening. In addition the campus where I get on WWW for homework had printer missing. It is spring break. So in essence I have no idea what were talking about, not prepared and need to get my boy home, he has been with me working in field all day, supper stories, see mommy you know. I am off tomorrow, and go back on night shift

*Pat* Pat is now Pat and Jeff is now Jeff.

*Pat* We'll explain later

*No1* How about Ron...is he there?

*Pat* Let him answer

*jcwhite* I think angie is ron

*jcwhite* I, of course, am Xiao

*Pat* jcwhite, real funny

*Angie* i may be a lot of things but Ron isn't one of them

*No1* OK everyone take a break.

*Pat* Take a long break.

*jeff* no1 I'm here in my own world, Ha! Give me some feedback on my question brother.

*Angie* breaks.... I think that was my problem last night.

*No1* Pat, we're working on argumentation--Workshop 12. Can you still get e-mail?

*Pat* Yes, at pat@versailles.iupui.edu

*Pat* That is my new work e-mail. My home e-mail is still red@one.net

*No1* OK, I'll mail you the pages with the assignments to both addresses. Do you have to leave now?

*Pat* Not yet.

*jcwhite* Wait, I think No1 means Jeff, not Pat...

*jcwhite* Jeff has to leave, right?

*Pat* ok

*jeff* I am serious folks, my stress level is a little high can I go now?

*jeff* right

*No1* I'm confused..the message about the "7 yr old" says "Pat" on my screen.

*No1* But is it really from jeff chandler?

*jcwhite* Mine too, but right after it it says Jeff is now jeff and pat is now pat and so they must have been the other way before.

*Jessica* saorry i'm late

*jcwhite* Hey, were just glad you're here and you're you.

*Jessica* smirk

*No1* OK, so I get it now. I think. Jeff c has to go--does jeff want me to mail him the assignment pages?

*Angie* any deer in your excuse?

*jeff* we swithced PC's because one I'm on has been having problems it is on campus and used by many people. Pat was on and I used his name while he looked into my problem.

*No1* OK, so Ron isnt there at all?!?!?!?

*jcwhite* So Jeff, Ron, Pat are all there. No1, jcwhite, and xioa are all here....Right?

*jeff* pat is now my mentor, he is taking Skip Hudsons place

*No1* Please, don't torment an old man....

*jcwhite* Jessica is late and Angie killed a deer.

*Angie* haha

*Jessica* are we doin the aiming at the mosquito thing

*Jessica* sorry i'm late

*jcwhite* Jessica, right now we are just straightening things out. We will be doing that mosquito thing soon.

*No1* Yess, Jessica, don't worry everybody is just "starting"

*Jessica* ok:)

*jcwhite* Where is ron?

*woddy* Hi, I am back in RB building. Hi to eveyrbody!

*Jessica* did we get a grade on the persusive essays yet?

*woddy* Hi, this is Xiao. My name is somehow "woody."

*Pat* Jeff is gone. Pat is here. Ron was never here. The end.

*Jessica* i thought xiao lived in california?

*Pat* I'll be back.

*woddy* I just got back form CA so that I could make it to this Chat here in the department.

*Jessica* you must be joking

*woddy* I am not, Jessica. I flew five hours for L.A to Indy.

*Angie* boy your arms must be tired!

*jcwhite* Wait, now Xioa is woody/woddy and boy are her arms are tired.

*Jessica* ok woddy, i beleive ya *smirk*

*No1 whispered to jcwhite* Jeff, is Xiao there with you?

*jcwhite whispered* Yes, she just walked in and wandered over to a computer as if she'd never left.

woddy changed nick name to xiao

*No1 whispered to jcwhite* OK.

*xiao* I changed my name now. Sorry for the confusion.

*No1* So, "Aiming a Cannon at a Mosquito." Jessica and Angie, did you get a chance to read this argument piece?

*Jessica* yes

*Angie* sort of skimmed it

*Pat* Type here and hit 'Enter' key to send.

*Pat* hello

*Jessica* I feel the autor is "complaining" more than suggesting any ideas

*Pat* I'm back for a while. I downloaded nschat for my work computer real quick.

*Jessica* author i meant

*No1* OK, this essay talks about the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can we start by saying what the main claim or main idea of the essay is?

*No1* If yo had to sum up in one full sentence what the author wants us to believe, what would it be?

*Angie* not all who are "handicap" are truly disabled in the physical sense

*Angie* and why should we accomdate the others.

*Jessica* that disabled people have minimul justice

*Angie* or

*Angie* why should we waste work dollars and taxes on the marginally disabled

*No1* What about this statement: "As with so much liberal legislation...this law is absurdly overbroad."

*Jessica* that it is taken way out of context

*No1* Jessica--what is the context you see?

*Jessica* that it isnt pinpointed enough on disabled

*Jessica* that it is to vague(the laws)

*Angie* but thats the point what exactly is disabled to the author

*Jessica* maybe people eligable for ssi

*No1* I think "overbroad" and "vague" both describe the author's dissatisfaction with the law--how about it?

*Angie* my son is labeled disabled because of ADHD and he can qualify for all sorts of special consideration in school and such.

*Jessica* agree

*Angie* Yep

*No1* Here's a possible main claim for the article--ready?

*Jessica* say so not wether your doctor or shrink say it's more like what the governments SSI accepts!

*Angie* ok

*No1* "The broad demands of the ADA will hamper American businesses and make us less competitive in the world."

*No1* This is a paraphrase of her idea i nthe 3rd paragraph.

*Angie* I see that, sure

*No1* If this is the MAIN CLAIM, then it should be the point toward which all her reasons apply--the "center" of the essay. Does that make sense?

*Jessica* makes sense

*Angie* yes.

*No1* I'm not saying she does a particularly good job--but if we find the main claim, we have a "key" to help us follow the rest of the essay; we should expect the writer to follow through and "Prove" her main claim.

*jcwhite* I am wondering if she does that...any arguments either way?

*No1* Before we try to decide the QUALITY of her argument, let's be sure we can see its parts. So, what is ONE supporting reason she gives for her main claim? Anybody?

*Jessica* say maybe she does, in between telling us her political views

* * *

*Angie* a business may have to hire someone to assist a handicapped employee

*Jessica* That not many people would mind paying higher prices to give the disabled a chance

*Angie* or rearrange work schedules

*No1* "That not many people would mind paying higher prices to give the disabled a chance" Jessica, do you see what she follows that with next? BUT maybe her real point is in the BUT clause--that there are too many people defined as "disabled"?

*Jessica* yes

*No1* So that seems to be one of her points--too many disabled according to the law. And there are "too many" because WHY?

*Angie* because anyone from a recovering alcholic to some one faking a mental disorder can qualify

*No1* RIGHT...and did you detect a hint of disapproval about people recovering from addictions?

*Angie* more than a hint.

*No1* OK, so I have a list of her reasons in summary fashion--I'll post it if you're ready.

*Angie* she uses words like unsettling, and forced to permit.

*Angie* ok

*Jessica* sure

*No1* 1) The mandate is vaguely worded ("reasonable accommodations") and could unpredictably force busineses to make large expenditures.

*No1* 2) The law covers too many people, some who aren't normally considered "disabled"; this puts employers at risk for extra liability

*No1* 3) The law covers people who don't deserve to receive assistance at employers' expense

*No1* So it appears her focus is on employers and the effect the law may have on them.

*Angie* ok

*No1* Does tis list look reasonable? Anything to add to it?

*Angie* it looks reasonable to me

*No1* OK, the next step is harder. What are some of her UNSPOKEN assumptions underneath her ideas? What is she assuming to be true in order to make her argument? Give it a try.

*No1* I hear wheels turning and gears clicking...

*jcwhite* I will toss out a key word that hits me oddly, given the list..."competitive" Anyone else think there are some assumptions there?

*jcwhite* guess not.

*Angie* she assumes that because she has trouble with the mental and emothional disorders that we will also.

*No1 whispered to jcwhite* Good point, Angie. Here's a similar idea I came up with earlier: "That the writer's "common sense" categories of disability are more reasonable than the law's."

*jcwhite* Angie, what do you mean "she has trouble..."?

*Angie* it just feels to me when I read her essay that she has preconceived ideas about someone who suffers from a mental or emotional problem

*No1* Good point, Angie. Here's a similar idea I came up with earlier: "That the writer's "common sense" categories of disability are more reasonable than the law's."

*No1* Sorry, I mean that IT IS ASSUMED THAT "the writer's "common sense" categories of disability are more reasonable than the law's."

*Angie* but the "common sense" disability is easier to accept because it is more readily visible

*Angie* and easier to accomidate.

*No1* Yes indeed, common sense says that, Angie. And persuasion works in a big way with common sense. But when we really think about it, disabilities, even physical ones, are not obvious or visible all the time.

*Angie* I agree.

*No1* How about the "bad back" that keeps a lot of people off work?

*Angie* but

*Angie* in her essay she seems more accomadating to the physical disabilty than the mental or emotional just by the words she uses

*Angie* such as

*Angie* physical: a simple device, or a telephone

*No1* Well put. So another assumption might be that " mental and emotional disorders are easier to fake than physical disabilities. "

*Angie* mental/emotional: "in recovery", forced and required to cover insuence

*No1* I don't agree with Charen, the writer...it's hard to fake mental problems, possibly easier to fake a slipped disk.

*Angie* I agree with you

*No1* Jessica, is this making sense for you?

*Angie* I work with a variety of children who suffer from all sorts of mental and emotional disablities

*Jessica* yes, I dont aggree with charen either

*No1* OK, here is another assumption I think she makes...."That American business interests and profitability are more important than the welfare of disabled Americans."

*Jessica* so what is the conclusion now

*Jessica* So she wants the disabled to be helped, but isnt sure what the

*Jessica* boundarys are of being handicapped.

*Angie* I get this feeling that its alright to be accomidating as long as it doesn't cost the employer to much money to be that way.

*No1* Right, Jessica, hence the last assumption I posted--business interests are assumed to come first.

*No1* Should we move on to evaluation of the argument as a whole?

*Angie* ok

*Jessica* yes

*Angie* I thought her argument was rather weak and lifeless.

*Angie* it was just kinda "there"

*Jessica* Say she has so many deragatory remarks, why even bother to listen to her, she's so sarcastic.

*Angie* I agree

*No1* Well, she has certainly turned us off in her tone and style, and her essay lacks somehting important. Can we find how it is weak reasoning?

*Jessica* she isnt clear on what she's upset about, the money or the faking of disabilities

*Jessica* she has no solutions at all!!

*Angie* nohting constuctive

*Angie* constructive

*No1* Jessica, good. So, matching the main claim with the supporting reasons, we find some logical link missing--constructive, reasonable, or whatever?

*Angie* the thread that should run through her essay is missing

*Jessica* she never states what she wants to come of this either

*No1* And what do we expect that thread to be, given her claim that businesses will "undoubtedly" be less competitive?

*Angie* anyhting, we just keepreading expecting to find it and then we are at the end of her peice and you're lost as to what she wanted to accomplish with it.

*No1* Well, she doesn't show how complying with the law will seriously hurt business, does she?

*Angie* I think the less competitive is the angle she wanted but it isn't proven

*Angie* she has nothk

*Angie* she has nothing to back this up

*jcwhite* Ah, my word..."competitive" I knew we'd get to it!!

*Jessica* say i dont see how the competative part fits in? If a disabled person performs the job then what in the heck are we competing with?

*No1* Good, Jessica, you've unearthed another assumption! "Disabled people are always a drain, never a benefit"!

*Jessica* i'm sorry i just think the writer is extremely anal

*jcwhite* Ah, Jessica, I think she is using it as in the American Businesses won't be so competitive if they have to spend their profit on helping these folks.

*Angie* If we are spending our corporate dollars to accomdate teh disabled, how can we compete with other nations, etc. who can channel their dollars into production

*No1* Right...other nations who let their handicapped persons beg o nthe streetcorners or be locked into back rooms...

*Angie* sorry

*Jessica* say we help other nations now, that cant feed them selves surely we can accomidate our own country to an extent

*jcwhite* Jessica, you unabashed liberal... :)

*Jessica* am i wrong?

*No1* No indeed..liberalism will rise again!

*Angie* no comment

*jcwhite* I think you are right Jessica.

*No1* Anyway, I think we're getting the hang of analyzing argumentation. Find out the MAIN IDEA, find the supporting REASONS, and TEST IT to see if they match. Make sense?

*Angie* yep

*Jessica* yes

*No1* So, with the good biblical phrase, "Go and do likewise"! Try to be sure that your arguments are clearly strengthened by your reasons, and that it all hangs together to make sense that appeals to your reader.

*Angie* sure

*No1* By the way, who might the audience be for this piece? What kind of person would be persuaded by this essay?

*Angie* a very weak minded individual.

*Jessica* our next assignment is to be on argumentation, such as our beliefs in abortion or premarital sex etc....?

*Jessica* a politician!

*Angie* haha

*jcwhite* Something that Jessica said earlier--as I am reading back through the log maykes sense--You said she is so derogatory and sarcastic, who would listen to her. I would say--good point and remember it in your writing.

*Jessica* thanks jc

*jcwhite* Many of my first year writers forget that when they start arguing.

*Angie* looks like I'll have to bite my tongue.

*jcwhite* And I get some very strong statements that push me very far from wanting to "listen" to them, much less agree with them.

*Jessica* understandable

*No1* Good point, JW. "Arguing" is often best when least emotional and angry.

*Angie* when and what is due next.

*Jessica* yes your point then comes across clearly

*No1* OK, the assignment. Have you seen the Current assignment for this week?

*Angie* in current project?

*No1* This is Week 9--on the Course Schedule page.

*Angie* ok

*No1* Yes, Angie, "Current Project"

*Angie* ok, i have it

*No1* Jessica, have you seen week 9 Current Project yet?

*Jessica* no, i was on that last night but i read our old rough drafts

*Jessica* is the new posts up?

*No1* Jessica, I mean in the Course Schedule; week 9 part

*No1* Argumentation is difficult when compared to other kinds writing; but it is one of the

*No1* most valuable types in school, college, business, and the professions.

*No1* oops, i sent more than I had intended...

*Jessica* hmmm dr.newbold are you using prewritten replys?

*Jessica* smile:)

*No1* Yes...got to I can

*Jessica* smirk

*No1* I meant to say "I can't type..."

*jcwhite* Dr Newbold is a fully functional computer system which we maintain here at BSU. He is 99% accurate in responding correctly to given prompts from students. It is really quite fascinating.

*Jessica* laf

*Angie* No1, I had trouble sending my letter and process writing the other day , did you receive both of them?

*Jessica* program him to give me a good grad;)

*No1* Anyway, this is the url for the Project description for this and following weeks: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/eng103/week9/swk9p.html

*No1* And here's the specific assignment:

*No1* The Project 4 task will be to produce an argumentative essay on a topic of your

*No1* choice (this would be option 3 at the top of p. 321). It should be AT LEAST 500

*No1* words long. The final draft should have process writing attached.

*Angie* and were they in good shape when/if you received them?

*jcwhite* I'm leaving guys. The lab attendant is ready to kick me out the door. Good luck w/ the assignments.

*Jessica* can you give us an example topic sir?

*Angie* see ya

*Jessica* later jc

*jcwhite* bye.

*Angie* sir? are you trying to score brownie points?

*No1* OK, Jessica, hold on a minute,...

*Jessica* :) no

*No1* Here comes...

*No1* The topic should be different from the one you used in Project 3.

*No1* A good topic for argumentation is one that affects not only yourself but others in

*No1* the public at large. Fertile subject areas might include (but are not limited to)

*No1* education issues (should K-12 schooling be year round?);

*No1* political decisions and public policy (do we need more roads? will more police

*No1* reduce crime?);

*No1* social and economic issues (is there a family crisis? is a higher minimum wage

*No1* good for the country?)

*No1* Notice that the topic can usually be expressed as a question arising out of a

*No1* larger subject area.

*Jessica* ok thank you

*No1* Want more?

*No1* Here comes...

*No1* You can arrive at a topic several ways:

*No1* 1.By thinking about any issue of public interest that has emerged from your

*No1* writing

*No1* 2.By doing more freewriting to see what surfaces

*No1* 3.By recalling subjects of readings you have done that interest you

*Jessica* i dont, but is the rough draft due monday?

*No1* No, I don't think so. I'll check...

*No1* Here's what's on for next week...

*No1* Decide on your topic for argumentation

*No1* Prepare to discuss topics in conference

*No1* By the way, Jessica, I thought you were coming up to RB 283?

*Jessica* i was but i had to go to city hall, my 16 year old cousin ran away from home

*Jessica* i'm just on irc at home thru vax

*No1* Disasters everywhere! And I spent the afternoon at the orthopedic doctors because my daughter broke her foot!

*Angie* what a week!

*No1* And that poor deer.

*Jessica* i'm sorry to hear that

*Angie* but boy was it good eatin'

*Angie* just kidding

*Jessica* :)

*Jessica* so were done now

*No1* OK, See you all next week!

*Angie* No1, I just received your 2 e-mails

*Jessica* how do we get out of irc?

*Angie* this is my confirmation

*No1* Oh, Angie, I did get your letter final but no explanation with it.

*Angie* no process writing?

*Jessica* say and my paper? arriveed?

*No1* No--this time we called the "Explanation" part of the assignment the equivalent of Process Writing--but whatever, I didn't get it.

*Angie* My friend and secratery is on vacation and I've been winging it all week at her house and trashing her computer

*No1* I'll double check on Jessica's--I think that came in good time.

*Angie* I'll try and send it again either tonight or tomorrow,let me know when you get that, pllease?

*No1* Jessica, I did get yours but you haven't done the explanation part. Look at p. 219 in your CW book.

*Jessica* ok

*Jessica* i'll get that to you right now

*No1* Look at "Writing Your Explanation" and answer 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6--do 4 only if yo want.

*Jessica* have a good day guys

*Jessica* yes 4 is weird

*Angie* I'm gonna go now, see yas later hope your week gets better!

*Jessica* quit

*Jessica* exit

*No1* Angie, I'll confirm when I receive it. I made an effort to confirm the letters--didn;t you receive that from me?

*Jessica* cant get out

*Angie* yes that I got.

*No1* Wel, Jess, you'll have to stay there all night!

*Jessica* funny:)

*Angie* bye :)

*Angie* good luck jessica

*No1* OK, will reconfirm on getting explanation part. Signing off.