Conference on Elements of PersuasionFebruary 22, 1997
Participants: Marc Wilson, Jeff Chandler, Web Newbold.
Transaction Key WITHIN THE WRITER transactions
- BLUE passages relate to writer interacting with own experience and text
1. Marc: Things sometimes do roll out pretty fast Jeff. don't worry to much about spelling nad conventions -- as long as your message is clear enough to understand. We can't grade the transcript, anyway!
2. JEFF : No1 I want you toknow our freshman (being homeschooled) got into a argument with me yesterday about writing. He hates it. As a result of thi course and you fine people working patiently with me I have found out it can be fun and very educational in the way I think and what i say. I challenged him to look deeper into getting something useful out of writing. Time will tell.
3. No1 : Is this your son, Jeff?
4. JEFF : Yes I have the sceen enlarged.
5. JEFF : yes
6. Marc: You know, setting up a Chatsession for purposes that would encourage your son to write and discuss his writing is pretty easy. I think my kids have taken to it like ducks to water
7. No1 : Well, I guess if he gets into a situation where he can write without being too nervous it might become a little more attractive to him. Does your home school plan use a pre-set curriculum for writing? 8. JEFF : That sounds neat. Can you tell me more?
9. JEFF : Yes we havea pre-set curriculum. There is so much out there and curriculum is getting so much better and user friendly. He has written essays for me and I think he does prettgood. He struggles because as a teen I think he hasn't figured out that his head is used a great deal for thinking.
10. Marc: I am trying to get the kids to establish a chatroom for a family meeting of cousins that they seldom see. Grandparants and Aunts/Uncles can join from time to time. It meets many needs. It does not (obviously) provide much in the way of disciplined wtingitn experineces. But it does get them to see some uses for writing.
11. No1 : Chatting encourages communication through writing. But it's very informal, conversational writing, like we're doing now. That experience may be a threshold that will capture his interest. Then, you can work in more formal writing. Talking ABOUT the writing, as we are doing, makes the task more interesting and may break down some barriers. And get him to use his head.
12. No1 : Jeff, can I make an observation? 13. JEFF : I like idea's of family chatrooms. Most of my wife and I amilies are from very poor back grounds. they simply do not have the money for this technology yet. We are very close as a family though.
14. Marc: It also helps if the kids can feel some "ownership" of the chatroom. They establish their own schedule, rules, and conventions
15. No1 : Jeff, can I make an observation?
16. JEFF : No1 shoot away.
17. Marc: regarding access to computers/interNet: that is a problem. But perhaps they can use libraries, college labs, etc
18. JEFF : marc, ever been to rural deep kentucky? they stil hang folks down there.
19. Marc whispered to No1 : Shall we open disucssion on "persuasion?"
20. No1 : Let's take care to address each other by name more when we're in chat like this. I try to most of the time, but even I forget occasionally. When several people are commenting, you need a definite marker as to whom your words are directed if they are intended as a reply to a previous comment.
21. No1 whispered : I guess so. Do you want to lead off?
22. JEFF : No1, yes I see importance of that.
23. Marc: to No1 good suggestion
24. No1 : Jeff, maybe the Kentuckians need some more connections to the outside world?!
25. Marc: I have two brothers and a mother living in KY
26. No1 : My wife's father's family is from Versailles.
27. JEFF : No1/marc, their life is simple and relaxed. for sake of protecting their valued culture, i'm not sure many are really interested in it.
28. Marc: Actually, I think KY has NOTHING to be embarrassed about in terms of education. The KY commuity college network is a model that IN and many other states ought to look at.
29. No1 : Well, Marc and Jeff, shall we look at persuasion?
30. JEFF : No1, ok.
31. No1 whispered : Marc--do you want to lead?
32. Marc: I wondered where the terms that Elbow was using came from. I found a chart in another book that was called the toulman model (SP?) that used many of the same terms, and gave me a picture or diagram that made a lot of sense
33. No1 : Marc may want to comment on this, but I'll lead off. We're looking at the essay "Debate" I mentioned previously. Let's focus on the STRUCTURE of persuasion rather than the content of her ideas or arguments, at least at first.
34. Marc: I don't know how to reproduce it in this environment, but I may give it a try in a moment.
35. No1 whispered : Yes, it is Toulmin generally--but these are widespread now.
36. No1 : Here are the three terms we are concerned with right now--CLAIM, WARRANT, and ASSUMPTION
37. No1 : Jeff, do you have a sense what a CLAIM is in a persuasive piece of writing?
38. Marc: Jeff. I get confused about the difference between claim and warrant
39. JEFF : A statement of writer view?
40. JEFF : Sorrbout addressing who first. I'll try harder and let me know what your asking me specificaly, I'll try to answer.
41. No1 : A claim IS stating the writer's opinion. Here's a precooked definition:
42. No1 : A CLAIM is an assertion that something is generally true--something that is open to argument. It isn't a claim to say that the sun came up today. It would be a claim to say people should not go sunbathing.
43. Marc: Well, to ANYBODY, then: what is a good way to differentiate between Claim and Warrant
44. JEFF : No 1, I'm usually straight forward in my thoughts. Generally true to any writer (claim) in my book is their opinioned view. correct me if off base please.
45. No1 : Marc--see preceding message.
46. No1 : Jeff--yes, your characterization is close.
47. JEFF : No1, warrant would be backed up by data presenting truth vs. claim aan opinion.
48. Marc: so Jeff, a claim is something that a writer is trying to get others to accept as true?
49. JEFF : marc, from my view, yes.
50. No1 : Most importantly in persuasion, the writer must make his claims SEEM REASONABLE to his readers. There needs to be a connection between writer's claim and reader's acceptance of them. This is where WARRANTS come in --to create belief or assent in the readers.
51. JEFF : no1, such as facts?
52. No1 : Yes--here's something more on warrants ... WARRANTS are supports that "uphold" claims in the minds of the readers. If I said "People should not go sunbathing," I'm doing that on my own say-so. But if I add "The American Medical Association has warned of the dangers of skin cancer from sunbathing" I would be WARRANTING my claim and supporting my argument.
53. Marc: So warrants might be characterized or divided into different kinds of proofs, then
54. No1 : Warrants can be "facts" or statistics--these are common today. But more subtly, warrants connect with preconceived notions shared between readers and writer...commonly assumed truths.
55. JEFF : no1/marc, do not warrants often times rely on biased truth? Perhaps this is not part ofwhat I'm trying to learn, am I beng argumentive?
56. bravehear joined.(total 4)
57. No1 : Marc, in terms of rhetorical theory, warrants are a lot like proofs--just newer terminology.
58. bravehear : Hey what's up?
59. Marc: Jeff, do you think warrants could be "emotional" as opposed to "logical" then?
60. bravehear : Hello
61. bravehear left(total 3)
62. JEFF : marc, yes I beleive so more every day. I tend to think many even educated folks who write today do so with a hidden agenda in mind.
63. Marc: Yeah, maybe even NOT so hidden it seems
64. JEFF : no1/marc, who was braehear? Can people brg in like this?
65. Marc: Jeff/N.1 ARe "emotional" warrants still valid? are Logical / fact based warrents the only valid warrants?
66. No1 : Jeff asks "do not warrants often times rely on biased truth?" Yes indeed. Truth is hard to determine so that everybody agrees with it and recognizes it. For this reason, since ancient times, rhetoric and persuasion has dealt primarily with probabilities and persuasions based on emotions. Most humans operate on emotions before "logic."
67. No1 : Jeff--This is an open conference--open to anyone in the world who has the computer and software. When people join, I speak to them privately and they usually leave.
68. JEFF : no1, WOW!
69. Marc: Jeff: others can feely join. Generally, we ignore them or the group leader asks them to observe silently.
70. No1 : There IS a way to make our conferences blind to others, but it's kind of complicated and I haven't had time to work it out recently. So for the time being, we are using open chatrooms. But I've had no trouble with 103 classes in chat rooms.
71. JEFF : no1/mrc someday I would like to know how you converse with them in ways I don't see you online doing it. I know that is not what we are here today for, it is educational and broadens my understanding.
72. Marc whispered to JEFF : if you wanted to run an open forum you could. we try to discourage outside interaction because it is hard enough (obvioulsy) to stay on the subject as it is.
73. No1 whispered : Marc, can you try to SAVE the transcript? The save routine isn't working on my system, I don't know why. Hit the save button and see if it lets you save it.
74. Marc whispered to No1 : ok I'll try.
75. No1 : Sure, Jeff. If you highlight the person's name in the left panel, you will send a message only to that person. I'll whisper to you next.
76. Marc whispered to No1 : I have saved the transcript to floppy.
77. No1 whispered : Great--do it again every so often--you can't save much at one time.
78. Marc: I just put an arrow beside a line of transript (somehow). What doeth this bode, oh great captain?
79. Marc whispered to No1 : I will save every few minutes, then. 80. JEFF : no1/marc, I tried, don't want to do something strange to get disconnected, my help leaves soon and I'll be on my own.
81. No1 : OOPs, I goofed. Left my whisper on and sent it to the wrong person! This happens a lot in whispering.
82. No1 : OK, Jeff, fine for now. So, Jeff, what is one of the claims the writer makes in the essay?
83. Marc: before it scrolls off the top, what about the use / function of emotion in warrants?
84. No1 : Let's first see if Jeff can identify a claim, Marc. Then we can follow up on warrants.
85. Marc: sigh
86. JEFF : no1, in a changing world even traditional language is obselete Gender appreciation must be considered.
87. No1 : Not bad, Jeff. You're coming close to her large main claim. Cender differences should be taken into consideration in our language. Why? The answer to this will get close to her warrant.
88. JEFF : no1/marc, i understand and alue diversity, but a claim like this is insane.
89. Marc: can you warrant the claim you just made, Jeff 90. No1 : Why, Jeff?
91. No1 : Jeff--Before we work on the content of her argument, let's see how she supports it. Why should we consider changing traditional patterns of English usage?
92. JEFF : no1/marc, there seems to be extremes anymore in regards to gender sensitivity. I mean where does it stop. Skip said i have about 25 more minutes.
93. Marc whispered to JEFF : Maybe if we get skipp interested enough he'll sign on too and let us play all afternoon!
94. No1 : OK, we'll finish up soon. But Jeff, you have skipped over to her content. Whether or not we agree with her issue, can we look at how she supports her claim? This is looking at persuaion "structurally."
95. JEFF : no1, with more female, youth ect. taking active rolls in society, vs traditional rolls, it is ood to look at some changes.
96. Marc : If we accept her CLAIM, do we have to accept the final arguement, or her form of solution/answer to the claim?
97. JEFF : no1/marc, opposite sex and race emergence into many areas, such as recreation, professions, and personal areas of our lives warrant change of traditional language. Why? To make it less offensive!
98. JEFF : no1, this is my view of her structual persusion
99. Marc : Jeff. / couldn't use of more precise and inclusive language also make our messages to such groups more effective?
100. No1 : Jeff--you got it! To make it less offensive and more FAIR. As Americans, we all value fairness--treating everyone equally. It's even in our Dec. of INdependence! So she uses this basic assumption to support her particular claim.
101. JEFF : marc, yes i beleive so
102. No1 : Another way she warrants her claim is through a humorous looks at certain absurdities of making English nouns and pronouns gender specific (as it was done traditionally).
103. Marc : I mean, the point about being less offensive is fair. None of us gets anywhere by needlessly putting folks off. But isn't the real issue to be sure that our informatin is understood by them, or that our arguements get a fair hearing from them?
104. JEFF : no1, Dof I is something I never thougth of, thanks for that view.
105. No1 : Jeff, do you see how FAIRNESS is an unspoken assumption we all share?
106. No1 : So fairness makes a good warrant for a rheotrical claim. It has persuasive appeal.
107. JEFF : no1, yes
108. Marc : No1/Jeff so the claim is that inclusive language is good, the warrant is that this is only fair??
109. No1 : Marc's point is a good one. We want ot be sure our language gets a hearing by our audience. Persuasion involves getting people to listen first, then to think about your point more later.
110. JEFF : no1/marc, not rhetoric really diatribe (ramblings of useless information)?
111. Marc : Jeff, I'm sorry. I didn't understand that last
112. JEFF : no1/marc, i'm not trying to be argumentive, only open minded. 113. No1 : Hold on, Jeff, I lost you there.
114. No1 : That's fine--could you repeat your idea in different terms?
115. JEFF : no1/marc, I'm off track, plase forgive and proceed.
116. Marc : Ok.
117. JEFF : no1marc I truly see fairness as a valued assumption 118. Marc : NO1 / is the claim- : warrant as I described above, then?
119. No1 : No problem. At any rate, when we use persuasive writing, we want to get our readers to pay attention to us. So any approach that builds bridges between you and them has persuasive power.
120. No1 : Marc, yes, I would agree to that as her larger, general claim.
121. Marc : I had an instructor once who advised using a SHOCK opening for arguementative papers. That always seemed like a dangerous tactic to me, and this discussion seems to support that contention.
122. No1 whispered : Indeed, Marc. But we need to move toward closing now--I'll lead?
123. Marc whispered to No1 : I'll follow
124. No1 : Jeff, we need to quit soon. Do you have questions about where you should go next with your project 3?
125. JEFF : marc, shcok opening? Mark (my interview) said something along those terms to ctch his audience attention wght away. It does eem to have value, but I wouldn't want to turn readers off to quickly, I mean a writer will anyway, no sense going over board right?
126. Marc : Jeff I agree.
127. No1 : Jeff, we need to quit soon. Do you have questions about where you should go next with your project 3?
128. Marc : Send me a draft of your next project. I e-mail my dircect home e-mail address to you after we sign off. Copy your drafts to Dr.Newbold, too. I can generally get the draft back to you in 24-36 hours
129. JEFF : no1, I have many written "letter to edit" sved, can I use one of these as a topic? I have a freshly typed one at home on my desk regarding: What price economic expansion in realtion to urban sprawl.
130. Marc : man, I can't believe its already noon!
131. No1 : Jeff: " What price economic expansion in realtion to urban sprawl." Sounds interesting. Is there a particular event or situation in your locality that you are responding to? Any newspaper article that triggered this letter?
132. Marc : Do I get to vote? That sounds like a great article to me. I would also draw your attention to an issue of AMICUS journal on that subject
133. Marc : If I can find my back issues I'll get the exact date for you.
134. No1 : Where does AMICUS come from, Marc?
135. Marc : It is the journal of the Wilderness Defense League --I think.
136. JEFF : no1, yes, a recent article perhaps 6 weeks ago in our locl paper, I never kept the piece. I need to run it own, I suppose you would like to have it incuded in my piece? A large agriculture producer wanted to locate a plant us, commun lashed out saying no yet we are having trouble with county budgets and probability of raising taxes, add to this more population, erosion of our rural way of life.
137. No1 : Yes, I agree that urban sprawl is ugly and harmful to the enviornment. Look at Muncie!
138. No1 : Jeff--OK, run it down if you can; if not, just describe the issue as best you can.
139. JEFF : marc, can ou help me out with locating some useful information from that article?
140. Marc : The Amicus article suggested that the problems were more due to how we managed community development and zoning practices than to simple developpment vs preservation. ... I'll look around this afternoon and see if I can find it. I'll e-mail you.
141. No1 : Jeff, if yo are familiar with the particulars of the porposed plant and the reasons your locality doesn't want it, I think you can do a good letter withour further outside sources.
142. No1 : If Marc can find something for you, so much the better!
143. No1 : Jeff; is there any chance you can join us Thursday evening? Or is that always a bad time for you?
144. Marc : Jeff, Don't get too focused on outside sources. I think the local issue is the real center of a persuasive article. Use what is helpful -- like the amicus stuff. But don't let it become just a book report!
145. JEFF : no1, this isse comes from deep down inside, a community attitude, of which i am part. This coming thursday I work day shift 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. anytime after 6 p.m. would do.
146. Marc whispered to No1 : saved again.... I almost forgot to keep saving transcrip
147. No1 : Well, we try to gather at 6:30. If you can make it, great! Be sure to look at the /week 7 pages describing our work and INteractions next week.
148. JEFF : no1/marc, ok! Can I go no, I'll print week 7 noteswhile I'm here, their system works much better/faster.