Conference on the Elements of Persuasion

February 20, 1997

(The first part of the discussion was not saved. Considerable disagreement about the issues of sexism and sexist language emerged when the group focused on the essay "The Great Person-Hole Cover Debate" by Lindsy Van Gelder (Community of Writers, pp. 226-27).

Participating were Dan Irvin, Sue Inman, Angie Satterfield, Jess Moore, Xiao Wang, Dr. Newbold (No1))

Transaction Key

ONE-WAY Transactions

TWO-WAY Transactions

Elisions indicated by * * *

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*Sue* "Newspeak-spouting feminists will go to destroy their mother tongue" is one of the claims she makes

*No1* Sue, wait a minute--isn't that a claim she ATTRIBUTES to the other side???

*Sue* She claims "the Fish and Game department is trying to keep thing "simple and forthright"

*Dan* I believe that claim is true, not an evil plot.

*Angie* I agree with Dan that is is not an evil plot to put down women but is a little change that hard?

*Sue* Yes, I think she is, but I feel like she might feel that way also.

*No1* Sue--look again at the top of 227. She's is saying that is the ATTITUDE of the fish and game dept--one she is saying is unhelpful.

*Sue* I see

*No1* EVERYBODY--HOLD ON A MINUTE!

*jess* I am confused

*No1* Let's try to take one step back from the CONTENT of the essay and focus on the means of persuasion Van Gelder uses. Can we take an "objective" look for a minute at some structural factors at work in the informal argument?

*No1* Is everybody agreeable? We don't have to agree n women's rights or sexist language to see how the language is working here.

*jess* yes...agree

*Angie* ok

*Dan* agree

*Sue* agree

*No1* All right! We all have the same goal.. to learn how language works so as to use it better!

*No1* SO...what claims have we identified thus far....?

*Angie* she claims that by becoming so defensive over it, how can we consider this a trival issue, point well taken considering the preceeding conversation?

*No1* How about this... "the English language is ...changing"

*Dan* No argument there

*No1* Angie, good--she claims it IS a serious issue to most people!

*Angie* it is changing but most people fight change tooth and nail

*Dan* Those who are not responsive are simply trying to keep things simple.

*No1* True, Angie--is that actually part of her claim, or a subtle implication she wants us to pick up on..?

*Sue* anything that is can stir emotion is not trivial,

*Angie* I'm not sure she even knew she was impling that.

*No1* Dan--I'm not sure I would agree that she actually wants us to believe in the "keeping it simple" view.

*Angie* I've written things that others have read and they pick up other meanings I never intended.

*Xiao* It is true that scientific change is relfected in language change. Lokk at the new vocabulary that come along with the use of computers.

*Sue* I think she wants us to see how crazy things can get in the process of trying to change

*Dan* I think she was saying that those against it are not radical, just simple

*Angie* and the new classes in african american lang.

*jess* i agree with xiao's point

*jess* Also if the writer came across as not saying something else than she didnt express her real point right?

*No1* There are at least two good threads here--the keep it simple question (Dan) , and the intention question (Angie) I can't speak to both at once, so don't think I'm ignoring one or the other!

*Sue* I don't think they are simple, maybe just not sure of where to go, or how the change has effected them.

*Xiao* Maybe she is saying that those people who don't pay attention to the nature of sexist language just want to keep things as simple as possible. As for what is underlied by these sexist langauage is another matter for more serious and complicated people--or sophisticated and sensitive people.

*No1* And there are some good points about language change, but with that we are getting toward the WARRANT end of our discussion.

*Dan* The simple idea is the same reason we say BSU instead of Ball State University. There are lots of ways we simplity our speech and writing. Using the term he is one of them.

*No1* Shall we look at WARRANTS for a bit?

*Dan* yes we shall

*jess* sure

*Sue* ok

*Angie* ok

*No1* A WARRANT is a statement or suggestion that supports or backs-up a claim. If you believe Michael Jordan is the best player in history, then statistics about average points scored per game would WARRANT your claim.

*Angie* she uses the flesh colored band aids to support her view.

*No1* So, if the writer believes that language should change with social pressure, what WARRANT should she use--does she use to back up her claim?

*No1* Angie answered before I even asked!

*Sue* she also uses the Judeo Christian

*Sue* instead of Christian

*No1* Sue and Angie--right on. So we see that persuasion is supported by reasons that the reader/audience can relate to and think make sense.

*Xiao* LOGIC REASONING:):)

*Angie* yes but did you know they now make clear band aids so as not to offend anyone?

*Angie* little trivia

*Xiao* THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT, ANGIE.

*No1* It makes sense to me that particular instance of language change should support an argument about another.

*jess* our society seems so petty....

*Sue* but the pad is still "caucasian"

*No1* The "pad" Sue?

*Angie* no more albino.

*No1* Petty in what way, Jess?

*Sue* The actual covering for the wound=pad

*No1* OK, got it Sue.

*Sue* as opposed to the sticky part

*jess* I feel the whole racial issue is way out of context

*Angie* the racial issue in the letter?

*Dan* The band-aid story is a good one but I'm not sure it would sway a reader to change .

*No1* How so, Jess? Do you mean in this article or in current culture generally?

*jess* I'm sorry I just meant culturally. I didn't mean to get of the subject

*Xiao* Racial issue is also reflected in the langugae people use. For example, one of my subjects told me that Chinese call themselves "banana"--meaning white inside and yellow outseid.

*Angie* it makes for interesting trivia, the band aid thing, but the christian thing I feel is a better point.

*No1* That's ok..we're an excited crew tonight!

*Sue* I think the last sentence does the most to get her point across, "Dear Madam, Fellas that means you too."

*No1* Angie--good observation. Some WARRANTS are more effective than others.[mark]

*No1* This is a good discussion, but we need to move on to ASSUMPTIONS before we're out of time. OK?

*Sue* ready

*jess* alright

*Angie* ok

*Dan* lead the way

*jess* when is this over?

*No1* Assumptions are unspoken beliefs--attitudes taken for granted. They are the common ground that makes communication possible so that we don't have to express EVERYTHING from scratch every time we have a dialogue.

*jess* and is No1 our prof? Just asking.

*Angie* hey Jess No1 means no one:)

*No1 whispered to jess* Jess--Sorry--I didn't introduce my nickname--yes it is I, Dr. N. We usually go about an hour to an hour and a half.

*Sue* for instance, He means, man or woman

*Angie* I think she assumes we have all expericenced this in one way or another.

*No1* Angie--I agree. That would be a double-edged assumption, right? She assumes women experience life one way and men another?

*Dan* The writer assumes the readers are all aware of the differences of opinion and the recent friction.

*Angie* no I mean her argument, men have exp. it maybe by a slip of the tongue and women by being slighted by it.

*Sue* But the current assumption is that men and women are different and do experience things differently, right?

*Angie* what Dan said.

*Sue* I agree with Dan

*No1* Can we look at this---what main assumption--big one--underlies her whole essay and reason for writing it??

*Angie* yes but she assumes we are all familar with the current friction on this point

*Xiao* Yes, I agree with Sue. It is psychologically acknowledged.

*No1* Her assumption of awareness on the part of the readers is indeed important. But what common ground is she aiming at?

*Sue* That women are offended by the use of He to mean man or woman,

*Angie* or Dear Sir to include the woman

*No1* Sue, I htink that comes closer to being a major CLAIM. Why should the writer be concerned with how people are treated?

*jess* I feel it is endless becuase everyone has their own preconceived ideas and sterotypes and, we may read the same thing but we will form our own opinions based on personal moral etc.

*No1* Jess--hold that thought for a moment--I want to get back to it!

*jess* for example the female/male controversy,

*Xiao* Her assumption is that people thaink that it is all right to use sexist words such as "history" rather than "herstory". The point is that some sensitive women don't feel it is the right way to coin these words.sexist words such as "men

*Sue* Sometimes we have gone a little to far in trying to make everyone happy, and not offend anyone.

*No1* OK, here's my reading of her major assumption--that "people should be treated fairly and equally in all respects" Doesn't that kind of overarch her whole concern?[mark]

*Angie* Amen to that, Sue

*Xiao* I agree with Sue.

*Sue* good point No1

*Angie* yes but everyone feels that way, or almos teveryone.

*jess* I am not offeneded by it, i have read things that way since 1st grade, I guess he just means all, like the bible says he shall.... they mean all of us it is so dated back

*No1* Angie--THAT'S JUST THE POINT!

*No1* We can find common ground for agreement--or at least for open-mindedness--in our shared values.

*jess* i agrre with common ground

*Dan* No1, I don't know if I would go as far as saying all respects. I did not get that much information from the article

*Angie* Yes but if we all agreed on everything think how boaring parties would be.

*No1* If we can appeal to common sense, common decency, a basic sense of fairness in our audience, we have the beginnings of a persuasive discourse.

*No1* Angie--there's everything and then there's everything!

*Dan* Amen brother or sister or whatever

*Sue* How do we do that?

*No1* Sue--how do we appeal to common elements inour audience? Well, lots of ways. Showing how fairness is being overloooked is one way, Van Gelder is trying that to make her point.

*No1* Using humor is another--getting us to confront habits through humor to show how old habits may be counter to everyone's best interests--and self-respect.

*Dan* Treat your reader with respect.

*jess* so would we use he/she when describing things?

*Xiao* And try ti identify with your readers.

*Angie* No1 are we going to be much longer and do you need to know our topic for our pers. letter?

*No1* Dan--yes indeed. You don't have to change your own opinions to treat others fairly. But if you DO treat people fairly--or at least civilly--they might listen to you a little. And sometimes "a little" is all we can hope for at once.

*jess* It would be hard to identify with ALL your readers though

*Sue* Amen

*Angie* thats why if you are writting a ppice on medicine you would publish it in the N.E. journal of Medicine not People mag.

*No1* Right, Jess, but all is not required. As you and others said, rarely do all people agree on anything.

*Dan* I have to go in a couple minutes. Is there anything I need to know No1?

*No1* What is the purpose of persuasive writing? Getting sincere people to listen and give a second thought to your concerns. Some people are not sincere and will never listen. But we must still try to deal with those who are and can.